I came across some unsettling news about Windows 10, which I am still uncertain about using.
Apparently, Microsoft is going to force updates on Windows 10. There will be no option to not update this operating system. The Windows Updates will be shoved down users throats. :thud: :sos: :muahaha: :blink:
http://www.howtogeek.com/219166/you-won%E2%80%99t-be-able-to-disable-or-delay-windows-updates-on-windows-10-home/
I think that I will have to stick with my Windows 7 as long as possible. With surprises like this, this, no doubt, may not sit well with numerous potential Windows 10 users.
What do you think of this potentially Big Brother move by Microsoft? :evil: :angry:
Note that is Windows 10 Home. With Windows 10 professional, you can delay Updates. If you currently have Window 7 or Windows 8 professional, you will get W10 Pro and will be able to defer updates.
I don't see this as a problem and certainly not unique. Many other programs and devices update automatically. This is not MS being big brother. This is ensuring everyone has the latest and is no different from smart phones, or even smart TVs, satellite radios, and other devices.
The Home edition is geared toward the individual home user, not the 'geek' or the computer person who has the knowledge and ability to customize their setup. I think it likely that for valid security concerns Microsoft wants to limit that home user's ability to defer any/all automatic updates.
The Professional edition is geared for the more advanced users, the ones who are more likely to understand the update process ... or in the case of small businesses, may use other tools to install updates over the network. That would be especially true of the large companies who would be using the Enterprise edition.
Just another reason i use linux!
Im so grateful Mitch "forced" me to learn/use Linux.
Ghost
QuoteJust another reason i use linux!
And I think that is an extremely significant point. No one is forcing us to use Windows.
Digerati,
You hit the nail on the head.
Ghost
When we purchase a computer with a Microsoft Windows operating system, although we own the hardware, we are purchasing a license to use the software. The terms of the license for Windows 10 Home specify that updates will be automatically installed. Fortunately, that information is being shared widely and anyone with a "Home" version who does not want to give up control of Windows Updates, can stay with the OS they have. Then, when it is time to purchase a new device, go for the Pro version and retain control.
Quote from: Corrine on June 12, 2015, 12:04:52 AM
When we purchase a computer with a Microsoft Windows operating system, although we own the hardware, we are purchasing a license to use the software. The terms of the license for Windows 10 Home specify that updates will be automatically installed. Fortunately, that information is being shared widely and anyone with a "Home" version who does not want to give up control of Windows Updates, can stay with the OS they have. Then, when it is time to purchase a new device, go for the Pro version and retain control.
That's actually my plan. I'll stay with Windows 7 until my computer needs to be replaced, then I'll go Pro. I prefer to have control, especially in view of the MS update fun over the past year.
Quoteespecially in view of the MS update fun over the past year.
I hear you but it is also really important to put that into proper perspective.
There are estimated to be more than 1.4 billion Windows computers in use worldwide and the vast majority of those run with default settings - that is, Windows Update downloads and installs automatically. And more importantly, the vast majority of those have had no problems whatsoever with Windows Updates.
I myself have 7 W7 and W8 systems in this house and all are set at the default except two and they are set to download, but then yell at me. But I generally just install what is offered and again, with no problems.
The problem is, if just .1% have problems, that is still 1.4 million and 1.4 million upset users can and do make a lot of noise. And when 1.4 million come to these forums complaining, it can seem we are inundated and that Windows Update is a total disaster. But it really isn't - especially if allowed to keep Windows updated regularly and the computer is otherwise properly maintained and secured.
Most of my clients, friends, and family want and expect their computers to work as hassle free as their microwave ovens, TVs or any other "appliance" in their homes. And for them, I have no qualms telling them to just keep Windows Update at the default settings. Keeping Windows current results in much less problems for non-experts (and me) than letting non-experts manage their systems manually.
Do all of those 1.4 billion Windows computers have high-speed internet access? What is the poor slob on a dial-up connection supposed to do? How can he be expected to download double (or sometimes triple) digit megabytes of updates each month?
A dial-up user needs to be able to control when and how these updated are applied. Within my circle of friends the dial-up users normally have go to a computer that has high-speed internet access and download the updates to a thumbdrive. Then they go home and update their machines from the thumbdrive.
QuoteDo all of those 1.4 billion Windows computers have high-speed internet access?
Of course not. In the US alone there are an estimated 3 million that still use dial-up. But believe it or not, the US is behind most advanced industrialized countries when it comes to broadband access.
But just because you are on dial-up that in no way means you should not keep your computer updated. I realize keeping systems updated for dial-up users is, and will continue to be a challenge. But updates come out every Tuesday to spread out the pain. And W10 updates supposedly will be more frequent too.
I don't know what the best solution will be for dial-up users. Those with portable device can hopefully visit free broadband hotspots. Otherwise, they may have to go to Linux.
I'm late to this discussion (as usual) and totally in the dark (as usual). :blink:
For the first time on my Windows 8.1 laptop, I found the albino Windows10 marker in my activities tray. It wants to update me.
When I look at properties of my computer, it just says version 8.1, 64-bit. It does not say Home or Pro, just 8.1.
I don't want to presume with this crazy stuff. Because it doesn't SAY "pro", is it a fair presumption that I purchased my laptop with the Home version?
The big question becomes, should I update? I've not seen any pro or con arguments yet, just outrage at being forced to update. I agree with that "forced" part, but would like to know more about what they're trying to do to me or "for me". Thoughts please.
Quote from: Lost on June 12, 2015, 06:26:33 PM
Do all of those 1.4 billion Windows computers have high-speed internet access? What is the poor slob on a dial-up connection supposed to do? How can he be expected to download double (or sometimes triple) digit megabytes of updates each month?
A dial-up user needs to be able to control when and how these updated are applied. Within my circle of friends the dial-up users normally have go to a computer that has high-speed internet access and download the updates to a thumbdrive. Then they go home and update their machines from the thumbdrive.
When I was running Windows 8.x on dialup, I downloaded the updates in batches....
First the small ones (under a meg) to get them out of the way,
Then, the larger ones, one or two at a time (depending on their size).
This could take anywhere from a few hours to three days.
If I tried to do them all at once, it's doubtful I'd be able to keep a dialup connection open long enough.
It's possible, but you need to be able to control it.
Quote from: PastyWhiteGuy on June 12, 2015, 07:55:26 PM
For the first time on my Windows 8.1 laptop, I found the albino Windows10 marker in my activities tray. It wants to update me.
Technically, it only wants you to reserve your free upgrade :)
QuoteWhen I look at properties of my computer, it just says version 8.1, 64-bit. It does not say Home or Pro, just 8.1.
I don't want to presume with this crazy stuff. Because it doesn't SAY "pro", is it a fair presumption that I purchased my laptop with the Home version?
I have the Home edition, and my properties screen says the exact same thing as yours. Belarc Advisor tells me that same information.
QuoteThe big question becomes, should I update? I've not seen any pro or con arguments yet, just outrage at being forced to update. I agree with that "forced" part, but would like to know more about what they're trying to do to me or "for me". Thoughts please.
Well, that's going to be a matter of preference. Most of the Windows 10 testers seem to like it. You're not going to have to decide yes/no right away, you'll have plenty of time to see how the early adopters make out.
"feature-wise, Windows 10 is the new Windows 7": http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/software/operating-systems/windows-10-1267364/review
Thanks. love your answer...to the point as always.
Quote from: PastyWhiteGuy on June 12, 2015, 08:29:05 PM
Thanks. love your answer...to the point as always.
A few other thoughts :lol:
Windows 10 will be familiar to Windows 7 users, with some design changes that 7 users will appreciate (eg, only the currently being used app glows in the taskbar, rather than all open ones; no more redundant libraries directories). There won't be much of a learning curve, and the new modern features will be worth checking out.
For Windows 8.1 users, 10 correct a few 'mistakes' ... it will boot directly to the desktop and stay there, there won't be the confusing tablet layout. The charms bar is gone, replaced by an action center that will actually be useful. Cortana looks to be pretty cool.
Dean, I suggest reading about Windows 10 if you are unsure of what you want to do. Do note that if you reserve your copy, I am thinking that the bits and bytes for Windows 10 will be downloaded in stages prior to July 29 so that there won't be a massive hit on the servers at one time. I could be completely wrong but I cannot imagine how it will be handled otherwise.
Quote from: Pete! on June 12, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
Quote from: Lost on June 12, 2015, 06:26:33 PM
A dial-up user needs to be able to control when and how these updated are applied.
When I was running Windows 8.x on dialup, I downloaded the updates in batches....
It's possible, but you need to be able to control it.
EXACTLY!! We need to be in control of it. But from what I'm hearing we will no longer be in control. Windows 10 will decide when to download and what to download. On patch Tuesday (or whenever it decides it needs updating) it will start churning away for hours and hours in the background trying to download multi-megabytes of updates. Dial-up users don't usually stay connect for very long at any one time, especially if they have only one phone line in the house. If they are forced to let Windows 10 manage the downloading their phones will be tied up and unavailable for other calls for the better part of day... maybe even longer.
QuoteWhen I look at properties of my computer, it just says version 8.1, 64-bit. It does not say Home or Pro, just 8.1.
FWIW, I have Pro and Windows Properties says "Windows 8.1 Pro".
Speccy says "Windows 8.1 Pro 64-bit"
Belarc, on the other hand, says "Windows 8.1 Professional (x64).
***
I think MS is going to have to do something different for dial-up users because you are right. You cannot have your phone tied up for hours on their schedule.
Quote from: Lost on June 12, 2015, 09:38:32 PM
Quote from: Pete! on June 12, 2015, 08:05:30 PM
Quote from: Lost on June 12, 2015, 06:26:33 PM
A dial-up user needs to be able to control when and how these updated are applied.
When I was running Windows 8.x on dialup, I downloaded the updates in batches....
It's possible, but you need to be able to control it.
EXACTLY!! We need to be in control of it. But from what I'm hearing we will no longer be in control. Windows 10 will decide when to download and what to download. On patch Tuesday it will start churning away for hours and hours in the background trying to download multi-megabytes of updates. Dial-up users don't usually stay connect for very long at any one time, especially if we have only one phone line in the house. If we are forced to let Windows 10 manage the downloading our phones will be tied up and unavailable for other calls for the better part of day... maybe even longer.
I can't say if Win 10 will be different, but based on my Win 8.x experience.....
If you get disconnected during a download, or have to use the phone... DO NOT turn off your computer, nor log-out. nor reboot.
Chances are that once you restart the download, it will pick up where it left off.
If you shut down, it will most likely have to start from scratch.
Based upon the kind of calls I've been getting since I got broadband.
Having your phone tied up is not necessarily a bad thing. :D
Quote from: Digerati on June 12, 2015, 09:46:59 PM
I think MS is going to have to do something different for dial-up users because you are right. You cannot have your phone tied up for hours on their schedule.
If any of you MVPs have contacts at Microsoft, would you please ask the question. The future of computing as I know it depends on it. It's about time you earned that enormous salary we pay you.
In a private venue that both MVPs and Microsoft employees have access to, I've asked if there are any information I can share about an alternative for dialup users (other than not upgrading and then being forced to purchase Windows Pro when getting a new computer). I am not optimistic though.
The information I have received is essentially the same as in this article by Gregg Keizer, FAQ: How Microsoft will update Windows 10 (http://www.computerworld.com/article/2935611/microsoft-windows/faq-how-microsoft-will-update-windows-10.html). The important thing to keep in mind with the "Current Branch" is, as a dial-up customer, you would want to make sure you are in the "Slow Ring". This would provide you with the opportunity to go to a location with a fast connection to download the updates either via wi-fi or to a USB stick as you do now.
Quote from: Corrine on June 18, 2015, 06:16:38 PM
The information I have received is essentially the same as in this article by Gregg Keizer, FAQ: How Microsoft will update Windows 10 (http://www.computerworld.com/article/2935611/microsoft-windows/faq-how-microsoft-will-update-windows-10.html). The important thing to keep in mind with the "Current Branch" is, as a dial-up customer, you would want to make sure you are in the "Slow Ring". This would provide you with the opportunity to go to a location with a fast connection to download the updates either via wi-fi or to a USB stick as you do now.
That might solve his problem, but imagine a shut-in, who can't conveniently go to another location, or someone in a rural area without broadband (or maybe "the library" is 20 miles away).
When I was still using dialup, the only time I went to another location to update was for the Win 8 to 8.1 upgrade. It was possible to use dialup for normal updates because I could control when any particular update(s) were downloaded.
OFF TOPIC:
When I upgraded from Windows 8 to 8.1, all my installed applications, remained installed. There were a couple of glitches with the "Classic Shell" menu, but that's not a MS problem.
1. Will an upgrade from Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1 go as smoothly, or will we be reinstalling our applications?
2. Will an application that runs on Windows 7, 8, or 8.1 still run on windows 10? (eg: Word 97, Quicken 2003)
Quote from: Pete!That might solve his problem, but imagine a shut-in, who can't conveniently go to another location, or someone in a rural area without broadband (or maybe "the library" is 20 miles away).
Someone is always going to get the wrong end of the stick. By far, the fewest number of people affected will be those on dial-up with no access to broadband. I just don't see how that can be avoided. If not that small demographic of users, it will be another.
Upgrading from Windows 7/8.1 to Windows 10 is a huge ordeal. It is nothing like upgrading a driver, or malware definitions or the latest version of CCleaner. Upgrading the Windows OS is HUGE.
So how do you push out such a HUGE upgrade like that smoothly and efficiently, in the most convenient manner to the most people, while keeping costs to a minimum?
Press and mail out 600 million+ DVDs to all registered owners? That would be a huge expense and no doubt millions and millions would be missed, and very vocal about it too. And have you noticed that more and more computers, All-in-Ones and notebooks are being sold without DVDs these days? Even many cases for self-builders like this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146149) don't have front panel access for a DVD. That would force those users to beg, borrow, steal or buy a USB external DVD player.
If they set a date and said, "come and get it!", NO DOUBT the global infrastructure would come to a crawl and most likely with significant Internal outages too on such a scale that, IMO, could affect the security of nations, global finance, medical/insurance, power grids/utilities and more.
So I see no other way to do this efficiently, and cost effectively with minimal impact on the Internet infrastructure than in small batches over an extended period of time through Windows Update.
Do you? Can you come up with a better method where no one is inconvenienced?
****
And FTR, I am all for MS "pushing" this out and forcing the upgrade on everyone. W10 (besides being free) is more secure and I applaud MS's commitment to security over everything else. They refuse to get blamed
again (and I don't blame them) for a lack of security when it was the badguys who put us here, lack of funding for law enforcement that allows the badguys to thrive, and the lack of action by the anti-malware industry, ISPs and telecommunications companies to stop malware at the source - since they have no financial incentive to do so. :mad:
Is this thread about the update from Windows 7 or 8.1 to Windows 10, or updates to Windows 10 after being upgraded?
Digerati: You may have misunderstood my comment.
I was not speaking of the upgrade to Windows 10, obviously that's going to require broadband or removable media.
I was talking about the routine updates and patches.
In that case the "better method" would be to simply continue the way it's done in Windows 8.X.
Forcing patches on dialup users, will make it highly likely that many of the downloads never complete.
Aaron: It seems to be about both. Perhaps the topic should have been split, when the emphasis shifted.
QuoteDigerati: You may have misunderstood my comment.
I was not speaking of the upgrade to Windows 10, obviously that's going to require broadband or removable media.
I was talking about the routine updates and patches.
In that case the "better method" would be to simply continue the way it's done in Windows 8.X.
Forcing patches on dialup users, will make it highly likely that many of the downloads never complete.
This thread is about the upgrade to Windows 10.
And as mentioned, what appears to be happening is W10 bits and prerequisites are already being pushed out via WU to make the transition smoother and more efficient - even for dial-up users.
According to the initial post its about automatic updates of the OS
Topic: Windows 10 Users --Like It or Not, You're Updated (Read 571 times)
According to Martin Brinkmann over at Ghacks, there is now a confirmation that Windows 10 will be forceably updated by Microsoft, including the Pro editions.
http://www.ghacks.net/2015/07/17/confirmed-windows-10-home-users-to-receive-forced-updates/?_m=3n.0039.239.os0ao065y0.8sz
I will wait a long while before taking on this Windows 10 and will stick with Windows 7, perhaps others will also. :blink:
The idea of being forced to accept updates at a time when one may or may not need them seems autocratic and Big Brother like. :smash:
It even says it in their long agreement:
he Software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you.
You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates.
By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice.
How nice. Judging by the immediate reactions over at Ghacks, this not sitting well with a growing number of folk. :sos: :evil: :angry: :shocked:
QuoteThe idea of being forced to accept updates at a time when one may or may not need them seems autocratic and Big Brother like.
Smart phones are outselling PCs big time as more and more users migrate to handhelds. They force feed updates. Where's all the android and IOS bashers for that?
Microsoft is putting security over user control - and they should because users are, always have been, and always will be the weakest link in security. And users (with the exception of a very small, but very vocal minority) have proven themselves over and over again as incapable of keeping their systems secure with keeping the OS updated one of, if not the most critical step.
And yet what has happened over and over again when a user's system got infected? Microsoft got blamed for a lack of security when it was the badguys perpetrating the offense, and the user's failure to "practice safe computing" that caused in infection in the first place. And MS was not just blamed by the users, but the extremely biased IT media who continually use their position to sensationalize headlines and displace blame.
As an IT tech since the early 70's who has had to clean up the messes caused by
users who continue to fail (either out of neglect or ignorance) to secure their systems, who then turn around and blame Microsoft for their mistakes, I applaud Microsoft for taking this approach.
Why? Because when users fail to keep their systems updated and secure, their computers become a threat to me, my kids, my grandkids and everyone else on the Internet.
And if me, I would much rather get blamed for ruining my grandkids fun by not letting them play in the street than see a drunk or a carjacker run them over because they were not paying attention. If you don't think that analogy applies, you are just wrong!
100s of millions of Windows users run with Windows and Windows Update at the default settings with no problems whatsoever.
W10 is just the launcher of your programs. If W10 does not support your "modern" hardware, does not play your games designed for it, does work with your productivity software intended to be used on it, does not allow you to listen to your music, watch your videos, email, Facebook, Twitter, surf the Internet or pay your bills
AND keep you safe at the same time,
then you have something to gripe about.
If you want full control over your OS, switch to a modern version of Linux.
Note too that Windows 7 is already more than 6 years old. W8.x is considerably more secure than W7 (especially with hardware designed for W8) and W10 is more secure than W8.1.
Because of badguys security must and does trump everything else. Sticking with W7 because W10 automatically updates is just being naïve.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/2949622/microsoft-windows/windows-10-forced-updates-dont-panic.html
Very good link, winchester73. So, I guess I'll wait and see when Microsoft starts force feeding its Windows 10musers bad security and other patches, and you will hear the hoots ad yells like you wouldn't believe/ :muahaha: :sos: :moreevil:
Some apparently like having Big Brother do everything for them. I always update my Windows 7 at the usual Tuesday per month. Telling someone that if they don't like the way Microsoft 10 does things, go to Linux seems besides the point. :shock:
I wonder how many Microsoft former or present employees are on this forum, touting all the wonders of their products. As for myself, I prefer as much control as possible. Since I am a very advanced computer user, I like as much independence as possible. Forcing updates on people like they are children because they were "naughty" in not updating on time insults their intelligence. Why not just say they are too dumb to be true in knowing how to use their computer. :evil: :sos: :tease:
QuoteI always update my Windows 7 at the usual Tuesday per month.
As for myself, I prefer as much control as possible.
This is almost a contradiction in terms because if you install Tueday's updates on Tuesday, then that does not give you time to see if any of the updates are causing problems. It takes at least a couple days to determine if any there are any problems and if those problems are isolated cases, or a major FUBAR by Microsoft. With my XP systems, I ALWAYS waited 4 or 5 days to install updates from Tuesday to wait to see/hear if there was any fallout. But W7/8 and especially W10 are not XP and should not be treated the same as XP.
QuoteI wonder how many Microsoft former or present employees are on this forum, touting all the wonders of their products.
I don't know of any here at Landzdown. But of the several MS employees I do know, they are some of the most critical people of MS products and policies I know.
FTR, I don't and never have worked for MS. And I'm all for bashing MS
when due. And if you knew me, you would know I don't hold back,
when due. This is not one of those times.
Quote from: Digerati on July 18, 2015, 05:05:20 PM
FTR, I don't and never have worked for MS. And I'm all for bashing MS when due. And if you knew me, you would know I don't hold back, when due. This is not one of those times.
I can vouch for that. :D
Bill, I've known Darksurfer at another forum since 2001 and believe he feels as I do. I understand that I am using Microsoft software on my computer and, according to the Windows 10 license terms (from here (http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-releases-new-license-terms-for-windows-10-no-surprises/)), there's not a lot of choice:
QuoteAutomatic updates. For consumers and small business, Windows 10 delivers automatic updates, with no option to selectively delay or reject individual updates. "The software periodically checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. ... By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice."
That said, when people purchase an expensive device it is in the $800+ range to get an up-to-date laptop with at least 8GB memory and Intel i7. That is a LOT of money to invest in a device that you own but literally have no control over. I spent unnecessary time today restoring Build 10240 because either the two security updates or the nVidia driver update that were automatically installed resulted in Windows Search not functioning.
Not only that, it wasn't until today that I received the "automatic update" for Flash Player to version 18.0.0.209 for Microsoft Edge. I manually updated the plug-in Tuesday morning and have been checking for the ActiveX update twice daily since the Microsoft Security updates were released.
What scares me is if MS force feeds me driver updates! So, I will be watching from the sidelines for at least a year to see how this Win 10 update works.
I do not want my driver updates from MS. I had one bad experience years ago and have never chosen to install any other hardware driver that MS has recommended.
On two computers I have suggested drivers for the attached monitors. The monitor have been working fine since 2009 on one computer and 2013 on another without the driver.
Skype is also listed. I don't want Skype. Is MS going to force a program on me that I never use and don't ever plan to use?
I'm also acquainted with Darksurfer from that other forum.
We disagreed on just about everything political.
On this forum, I'm amazed at how much we agree.
BTW: There doesn't seem to have been anything addressing the plight of dialup users (discussed earlier), except to write them off as insignificant.
Quote from: Pete! on July 18, 2015, 10:53:41 PM
BTW: There doesn't seem to have been anything addressing the plight of dialup users (discussed earlier), except to write them off as insignificant.
Nothing beyond what I posted earlier. Unfortunately, the people I asked are all on high-speed internet connections and, I am certain, faster connections than I have.
Quotedialup
Does dialup still exist ? :confused: :shock:
In the U.S., absolutely! It was just this year that Pete finally got a broadband connection and Lost is still using dial-up. There are people we know on another forum still using dial-up. In fact, between AOL, Juno, 1access.net, frys.com and other companies that still provide dial-up Internet service my guess is that there are still at least 3 million people in the U.S. using dial-up. Here's a recent report about AOL: OMG: 2.1 million people still use AOL dial-up - May. 8, 2015 (http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/08/technology/aol-dial-up/index.html).
Quote from: Frands on July 19, 2015, 09:20:27 AM
Quotedialup
Does dialup still exist ? :confused: :shock:
In suburban NJ, where most people consider DSL obsolete, I had two dialup accounts with different ISPs.
A few weeks ago, I checked, and both connected at 50 K or better.
I don't think the ISPs would still maintain (pay for) the access numbers, if they didn't have enough users to make it profitable.
Quote from: CorrineI spent unnecessary time today restoring Build 10240 because either the two security updates or the nVidia driver update that were automatically installed resulted in Windows Search not functioning.
That would certainly frustrate me too - especially if the NVIDIA driver update had nothing to do with my graphics card - as is often the case.
But compare that time to the time spent fixing a computer compromised by malware. Include the time it takes to find, then remove the malware from an infected system. Add in the time needed to fix the damage caused by the malware. Then the time to fix the frequent
collateral damage caused by the malware
removal process. Add that to the time needed to setup proper security on that system once clean, and to instruct/remind the user how to keep it safe from there.
Have you really spent an inordinate amount of time fixing computers broken by an automatic update?
Do the numbers of computers broken by WU even compare to those compromised by malware due to a lack of security and user discipline?
Did the WU problem threaten your identity? Did it expose your bank accounts? Turn your computer into a zombie pornography and/or spam distributor? Did it turn your computer into a threat to your other networked computers or to the rest of us?
***
I think we should not forget that W10 has not gone final yet so in effect, those of use using W10 are still beta testing it.
***
I really do understand the concern and fear that an automatic update will break a computer. I share those concerns! And I would never say it cannot or will not happen. Microsoft certainly has a history of such catastrophes that did indeed affect a lot of users - but not a large "percentage" of Windows users and I think we must not lose sight of that.
Just tossing out numbers, 10 million users with broken computers is a HUGE number. But with >1.4 billion Windows systems out there, that is less than 1% (.714%) - a tiny percentage and I am quite sure none of Microsoft's WU fiascos broke 10 million systems.
Yet 10M complaining users make a LOT of noise which the IT media then relishes blowing WAY out of proportion with sensationalized headlines. Why? Because they love to bash Microsoft any chance they get.
So Microsoft
will get bashed regardless. That's just a fact.
It is also a fact that Microsoft does and
will get blamed if (when) a vulnerability is discovered badguys are able to exploit when
users fail to protect their computers though a lack of discipline in practicing safe computing. Ever since the release of XP, Microsoft has been relentlessly bashed on security when it has been the badguys perpetrating the offenses on systems their owners failed to secure. And MS is sick and tired of being bashed on security when it is not their doing. And I don't blame them.
So I am saying when it comes to getting blamed, Microsoft would rather get blamed for something that is their doing than for a lack of security. And it is fact that failing to keep Windows updated is a major cause of computer infestations.
I'm a computer geek! Have been since the mid-70s. I want total control over my computers too. But badguys have changed the way we live our daily lives.
I am also an electronics technician who fixes computers. I have been in the trenches every day for over 4 decades! And I would much rather fix a computer that was broken by a failed WU than to fix one riddled with malware because the
user failed to keep their OS and security updated.
And BTW, let us also not forget that those infected systems don't just affect the owners, but those computers then become threats against the rest of us too!
So "FOR THE GREATER GOOD", as someone who's had a very long career doing IT hardware support, I would much rather see automatic WUs if that means fewer compromised systems - since again, it is a known fact keeping Windows updated is one of the best defenses in security.
So do I want the freedom of full control over my computer? Yes. But this is another case where "Freedom is NOT Free!". And yes, it is sad. But blame the badguys, not Microsoft.
First of all, thanks Corrine and Pete(oh my Lord, we agree on something, oh happy day :mitch:)
I have been thinking long and hard about Windows 10 and the n allowing folk to have updates at their discretion is a major sticking point--and I am not the only one.
My decision to stay with Windows 7, in spite of all the "advantages" of Win10 is based on a beta-like mindset in that Microsoft is gonna do tweaks and improvements, no doubt, I hope, on Wiin10. One of those tweaks I hope will be the manual update option. Manual updating is no problem for me. A Big Brother approach to updates removes my control and many others over implementation of these updates. I also agree with plodr over drivers being cavalierly put on by Microsoft or any other company on computer(s) is not good business.
Like I said, if you want t be treated like babies who don't know to do, or should do, then I suppose automatic updates would be the order of the day. But I don't like it nor am I foing to switch Operating systems--at least not yet.
There is one year to get the free Win10. Maybe they'll be changes in policies and structures that I'll like.
Quote from: darksurfer on July 19, 2015, 04:43:53 PM
Like I said, if you want t be treated like babies who don't know to do, or should do, then I suppose automatic updates would be the order of the day. .
A bit overly simplistic or sensationalist, no?
QuoteLike I said, if you want t be treated like babies who don't know to do, or should do, then I suppose automatic updates would be the order of the day.
That is more insulting than being simplistic or a sensationalist. Excuse the world for not being as smart as you! You are now implying everyone should be as knowledgeable as you, and desire to be as hands-on as you. That is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is, the OS should be as hands-off as possible and just make your hardware work together and run the software you want to run. Other than that, the OS should stay out of the way! And Windows does that very well.
If you want to be that hands on, run Linux! But don't insult everyone else because they don't care to be that hands-on.
Quote from: Digerati on July 19, 2015, 06:18:54 PM
QuoteLike I said, if you want t be treated like babies who don't know to do, or should do, then I suppose automatic updates would be the order of the day.
That is more insulting than being simplistic or a sensationalist. Excuse the world for not being as smart as you! You are now implying everyone should be as knowledgeable as you, and desire to be as hands-on as you. That is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is, the OS should be as hands-off as possible and just make your hardware work together and run the software you want to run. Other than that, the OS should stay out of the way! And Windows does that very well.
If you want to be that hands on, run Linux! But don't insult everyone else because they don't care to be that hands-on.
To me the insult was pointed the other way.
Just because some people are "challenged" doesn't mean you should treat everyone like an idiot.
Some people are going to get malware, regardless of how many updates they get.
If I may quote "Freedom is NOT Free!". :D
I would guess that there are many more users than superusers or advanced users. A average user just wants it to work. These users don't know how or take the time to turn off automatic updates, so there getting them automatic anyway. The scheduled updates are for 3 AM, there computers aren't left on to download and install the updates, or automatically restart to install them. So much for automatic updates normal schedules.
I have never turned off automatic updates, I do check for updates manually at times. With Windows 8.1 computers I have seen updates fail, but have never seen an update stop a single 8.1 system from functioning. You may have to wait for a reboot, but it will revert and boot back to the OS. The scenario stays the same each time the computer is restarted or turned off, the same updates are trying to install, the updates will stay in the cycle until someone resolves the problem. Is windows going to resolve it, usually not. I have seen WIN 7 go into a vicious update and reboot cycle. It usually requires a safemode boot and a system restore. In all of the systems I have ran into that have done this, none had malware. I have seen driver updates cause device failures or malfunctions.
It is a concern, but I think when it comes to drivers update Microsoft needs to keep them as a optional update, unless there is a security issue. Is automatic updates a game changer? I don't think so. Is the failed updates going to be harder to resolve? Probably. Are there going to be some problems? You know there will be some bumps in the road.
The problem I see is everyone being critical before there is actually a problem.
I had people argue with me when I said WIN 8 would be a flop and many users would not adopt it. Win 10 is the correction.
Vista worked but was a resource hog. It is still a functional software. Win 7 corrected the issues.
Win Me was horrible, such a resource hog, it sucked the life out of the hardware. Win XP was the correction.
I believe most major manufactures run automatic updates for software these days.
The bottom line is nobody is going to make you upgrade, that is a individual choice. If you don't want it, don't get it, but 13 months from now, when everyone that is using it brags about WIN 10 don't forget you had your chance. I consider it the the new WIN 7 supercharged (personal opinion).
QuoteA average user just wants it to work.
Exactly. They see their computers as just another piece of electronics in the house - like the TV or microwave oven, or cell phone.
QuoteWith Windows 8.1 computers I have seen updates fail, but have never seen an update stop a single 8.1 system from functioning.
Same here. Worst case scenarios was rolling back to a previous Restore Point. I cannot say the same for W7, but even then it did not make a brick out of the computer.
QuoteI had people argue with me when I said WIN 8 would be a flop
Well, the problem with W8 was the UI, not the OS itself. And 8.1 helped correct that for many and for others, including me, Start8 made it all better.
QuoteSome people are going to get malware, regardless of how many updates they get.
No doubt - because keeping our systems updated is only one part of computer security - but it is a major part. But still if they keep it updated, keep their security updated, don't participate in illegal filesharing via P2P and Torrents, don't visit illegal pornography and gambling sites, and don't be "click-happy" on unsolicited links, downloads, and attachments, there is a darn good chance they will never get infected. That policy sure has worked for me since I got infected by booting to an infected floppy back in W95 days via the "sneakernet". And in my line of work, my systems are probably more exposed than most "normal" users.
I did mean the UI, the OS works very well, I use WIN 8.1 daily. Win 1O is still mainly based on 8.1 operating capabilities with improved speeds and UI.
I don't use it generic out of the box, no third party apps, just boot to desktop direct, probably use right click function on start button, almost always. Win 10 start button has the same right click function.
Darksurfer, did you ever try any of the Win 10 previews? It's fairly simple to setup a dual boot system Win 10, with Win 7 or Win 8.
Let me say that, before anyone else gets bent out of shape, is I expressed my opinion of the auto updates on Win10. I had no intention in insulting people's feelings.
As for the using Linux statements, forget that. Notice I didn't say Apple. Okay, then.
Use whatever you want. I have other things to do. Whether you are a light user, superuser, whatever, do whatever you like. I am just going to stay with Windows 7. I like as much control of my computer as I can get without actually building one.
Let's no start misinterpreting statements which you don't understand. I find it insulting that some take what I say as an insult. No I will not test the Win10 because there are still too many uncertainties around it. : :2cents:
Don't jump on me because I don't enthusiastically jump on every new thing that comes along from Microsoft or whatever. If you recall, I started this thread because of reaction I saw from other parts of the WebSphere about the automatic update imposition announcement from Microsoft on Win110.
Who knows, I may wind up having Win10 in the future. So calm down!!
What I'm hoping for....
When MS developed Win 8, they thought we wanted a user interface that looks like an I-Phone.
They were wrong.. The fact that Win 10 will have a functional start button, indicates that they realize they made a mistake.
Maybe they're listening now.....and aren't "locked into" every feature.
They're getting both positive and negative feedback about forced updates.
After the release, They'll get even more feedback.
If it causes resentments that threaten their bottom, line maybe a compromise.
IMHO (possible alternative): Auto updates is default, with a warning if you start to change it (similar to Firefox when you mess with "about:config").
Maybe even a pop-up "nag" now and then, like the ones I was getting when I delayed getting Win 8.1.
Then, if you get into trouble, you have nobody to blame but yourself, the IT techs make more money, and the help forums get more traffic.
I've had my say. I don't see the point in arguing any more.
(Unless someone says something particularly outrageous, and I yield to temptation). :evil:
I like your alternative suggestion, Pete, especially if the warning is stern enough with really strong warning, those who didn't use automatic updates and, as a result, forgot to update, will be sufficiently "scared" into keeping the setting. Then those of us who pay attention to updates, want to read the KB articles first, like to download the updates and then install a few at am time, dial-up users who need to do updates in batches, as well as other scenarios we could come up with will be happy.
Quote from: Corrine on July 20, 2015, 08:04:15 PM
I like your alternative suggestion, Pete, especially if the warning is stern enough with really strong warning, those who didn't use automatic updates and, as a result, forgot to update, will be sufficiently "scared" into keeping the setting. Then those of us who pay attention to updates, want to read the KB articles first, like to download the updates and then install a few at am time, dial-up users who need to do updates in batches, as well as other scenarios we could come up with will be happy.
My view exactly Corrine. However, for this and other reasons I will not be moving to win 10 for the foreseeable future. I'm a happy 7 user
I'm a happy 10 user. :tease:
You're a 10 in my book, Aaron. :hug:
It isn't a fair comparison between Windows 10 to my Windows 8.1 tablet, except that I do prefer the desktop. I like being able to pin frequent folders in File Explorer but don't care for the Mail App. I know a lot of people love Cortana but I gave up on it -- "she" just didn't do what I wanted.
Can I easily switch between Windows 7 and Windows 10 and find my way around? Absolutely and it has come a long, long way since the first build -- which failed for me but the second worked just fine as has each subsequent build.
Quote from: techie on July 19, 2015, 07:44:37 PM
Darksurfer, did you ever try any of the Win 10 previews? It's fairly simple to setup a dual boot system Win 10, with Win 7 or Win 8.
I'm very content with Win 7, yet am not completely adverse to trying Win 10. Please explain how to "fairly simply" set up a dual boot Win 10 and Win 7. Moreover, after setting up the dual boot, I'd like the option of removing Win 10 if it rubs me the wrong way. Is that possible? Thanks in advance.
(
Current rig: Windows 7 64 bit; 174 GB free of 283 GB)
Quote from: JDBush61 on July 21, 2015, 01:14:44 AM
Quote from: techie on July 19, 2015, 07:44:37 PM
Darksurfer, did you ever try any of the Win 10 previews? It's fairly simple to setup a dual boot system Win 10, with Win 7 or Win 8.
I'm very content with Win 7, yet am not completely adverse to trying Win 10. Please explain how to "fairly simply" set up a dual boot Win 10 and Win 7. Moreover, after setting up the dual boot, I'd like the option of removing Win 10 if it rubs me the wrong way. Is that possible? Thanks in advance.
(Current rig: Windows 7 64 bit; 174 GB free of 283 GB)
I could sit and type a step by step guide, but How-to-Geek has it with all the pretty pictures with a detailed setup.
http://www.howtogeek.com/197647/how-to-dual-boot-windows-10-with-windows-7-or-8/
If your going to do it I would allow about 40 GB of space to test with.
If you don't already have an Win 10 preview ISO, that could be a problem as MS isn't releasing anymore ISO files for WIN 10, even to insiders, just upgrades. I'm sure there are copies out on the net, be careful of your source.
http://www.howtogeek.com/80094/how-to-burn-an-iso-image-in-windows-7/
When booting to WIN 10, it will be your C:\ drive. When booting to WIN 7, it will be your C:\ Drive. You don't see the Win 10 partition when viewing, from my pc or computer when booted into WIN 7 or the WIN 7 partition when booted into WIN 10. Each OS is independent from the other.
You can remove it manually later if you decide that you don't want the WIN 10 any longer or use this tutorial and tool.
http://www.intowindows.com/uninstall-windows-from-your-pc/
It's fairly simple, but semi-advanced. As with anything such as this a backup beforehand is recommended.
Off topic, but you ask.
P.S. You may see both partitions in MY PC or Computer. In my case my setup doesn't as I have a second hard drive for data only, which is the default D:\ drive in both systems. It allows me to view pictures, music, etc. in either OS.
Still off topic...
techie:
I just skimmed the information at the link you posted above...
Can I assume that this option is not available to people who upgrade via the normal "Get Windows 10" (free upgrade) roll out?
Or is it too soon to tell?
I don't know that a clean install would be possible, because you are upgrading. If you upgrade to WIN 10, then you are agreeing that the old WIN 7 or WIN 8 is no longer installed on any system, i.e. you are getting the Win 10 update by giving up your previous version. MS does allow a 30 day trial for testing most OS.
This is getting into the legal aspect, but if you upgrade your current system, you have 30 days to revert or rollback to your previous OS at least for now.
Since it is a direct download, not a ISO boot disk, I wouldn't think you could, because it is just like an update, except major locked to your current OS.
Quote from: techie on July 21, 2015, 04:41:40 PM
I don't know that a clean install would be possible, because you are upgrading. If you upgrade to WIN 10, then you are agreeing that the old WIN 7 or WIN 8 is no longer installed on any system, i.e. you are getting the Win 10 update by giving up your previous version. MS does allow a 30 day trial for testing most OS.
This is getting into the legal aspect, but if you upgrade your current system, you have 30 days to revert or rollback to your previous OS at least for now.
Since it is a direct download, not a ISO boot disk, I wouldn't think you could, because it is just like an update, except major locked to your current OS.
I wasn't aware of the the agreement to do away with Win 7-8, nor the limited time to revert, but the rest is about what I thought, (unless they do it a lot differently than the Win 8 to 8.1 free upgrade).
Thanks
QuoteI wasn't aware of the the agreement to do away with Win 7-8
It is not a matter of "doing away with" the older versions. Ever since Microsoft has been offering "upgrade" licenses, it has always been that there must be a qualifying license to start, and the upgrade is
always tied to that qualifying license. The upgrade license agreement has
never allowed you to keep the qualifying old Windows on 1 computer and the upgrade Windows on a new computer.
And that includes "virtual" machines and dual boot machines too - so you cannot "legally" have both operating systems as bootable OSs on 1 computer either. "Technically", it can be done but just because you can technically do something and get away with it does not make it legal (like rolling through stop signs). And note this is something we as users agreed to when we first started using the computers and decided to keep using them. And that's what makes it legally binding.
And to extend this further, if the original qualifying Windows license is an OEM/System Builders license, then that is inextricably tied to the "O"riginal "E"quipment so the W10 upgrade must also be installed on that original computer too.
When I mentioned the dual boot, it was clearly stated using the preview release for insiders. You were allowed to use and test the software as is. You aren't required to upgrade your current system software, it can be a clean install, or as a dual boot as long as you stay logged into your MS account when using Windows 10 and provide feedback. I don't think you would be in violation if you only use the insiders edition, you are testing the software as agreed upon, by the TOS, therefore it is under a separate license. If you own a OEM of Win 7 or 8 and purchase a full version retail (not upgrade) of Windows 10, you are legally licensed and not in violation of the TOS. You may only use it on one system, thus legally you can use your licensed OEM Win 7, and your separately licensed full version Win 10 as a dual boot on one system.
If you use the upgrade version of Win 10 from a previous OS, then you are in violation of the TOS, if you continue to use the previous Operating System.
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/insider_wintp-insider_install/windows-10-dual-boot-with-windows-81/a34c9203-9778-4387-9ddc-bd52c6bdef51?auth=1
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/wiki/insider_wintp-insider_install/how-to-dual-boot-windows-10-with-previous-versions/9695dfc7-1c13-4d8d-b10b-587e78c6ac36
http://www.windowscentral.com/how-dual-boot-windows-10-preview-windows-81
Sorry way off topic.
Just to add to the topic, you can, turn off automatic device driver updates, from Windows updates.
My way to it in Windows 10 or Windows 8.1.
Right click start button, left click system, on the left side pane left click Advanced system settings. Choose hardware tab at the top, left click choose device installation settings, change the radio button to No, let me choose what to do, now change the additional radio button to Never install driver softawre from Windows updates. P.S. Save changes before closing.
I believe you will no longer receive device driver updates, from Windows.
In windows 7 or Vista right click my computer, left click properties and follow the rest of the above from advanced system settings.
Back on topic:
Regarding the plight of dialup or metered connection users...
Techie:
When you said the following were you generalizing, or does Win 10 always do automatic updates at a given time of day?
Quote from: techie on July 19, 2015, 07:13:00 PM....... The scheduled updates are for 3 AM, there computers aren't left on to download and install the updates, or automatically restart to install them. So much for automatic updates normal schedules.......
Possible solution to dialup users, and others, who want to install updates at their own pace.
Turn off your computer (or modem) at night. Most dialup users disconnect when not actively surfing anyway.
It works in Win 8.x .
Will that work in Win 10 ? Or will checking for updates start the "forcing" process?
After downloading updates that require a restart to be installed, you'll receive a prompt and have the ability to use the scheduled time, change the scheduled time or restart now.
The 3 AM was a set default time for always on systems. Every Windows I think since Win 98 automatically runs the update manager delayed anytime the system is turned on and connected to the internet as far as I know, if it was set to receive updates automatically.
Windows 10 checks for updates and starts installing in the background as previous Windows versions did. Basically if your connected to the internet it will start downloading updates if needed. If you don't get all of the updates, before you disconnect or turn off your system, it will start again when you turn it back on and reconnect to the internet. If you tell it to check for updates and updates are available it will start downloading the updates immediately.
It runs in the background and downloads silently, while your reading or posting in a forum. I believe it will install silently if no restart is required, i.e. Windows Defender update.
As Corrine stated it will notify you when a scheduled restart is needed, to finish installing updates.
Quote from: techieWhen I mentioned the dual boot, it was clearly stated using the preview release for insiders. You were allowed to use and test the software as is. You aren't required to upgrade your current system software, it can be a clean install, or as a dual boot as long as you stay logged into your MS account when using Windows 10 and provide feedback. I don't think you would be in violation if you only use the insiders edition, you are testing the software as agreed upon, by the TOS, therefore it is under a separate license.
Yes, as you correctly noted, for the "
preview release for insiders".
QuoteIf you own a OEM of Win 7 or 8 and purchase a full version retail (not upgrade) of Windows 10, you are legally licensed and not in violation of the TOS. You may only use it on one system, thus legally you can use your licensed OEM Win 7, and your separately licensed full version Win 10 as a dual boot on one system.
Yes, and again as you correctly noted, if you "
purchase a full retail (not upgrade) of Windows 10". And that is on the original equipment the OEM was tied to.
Quote from: techie on July 21, 2015, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: JDBush61 on July 21, 2015, 01:14:44 AM
Quote from: techie on July 19, 2015, 07:44:37 PM
Darksurfer, did you ever try any of the Win 10 previews? It's fairly simple to setup a dual boot system Win 10, with Win 7 or Win 8.
I'm very content with Win 7, yet am not completely adverse to trying Win 10. Please explain how to "fairly simply" set up a dual boot Win 10 and Win 7. Moreover, after setting up the dual boot, I'd like the option of removing Win 10 if it rubs me the wrong way. Is that possible? Thanks in advance.
(Current rig: Windows 7 64 bit; 174 GB free of 283 GB)
If you don't already have an Win 10 preview ISO, that could be a problem as MS isn't releasing anymore ISO files for WIN 10, even to insiders, just upgrades. I'm sure there are copies out on the net, be careful of your source.
Many thanks for the detailed reply. I'm not an insider, I don't have a Win 10 preview ISO, and I avoid downloading any files from the Net in which I cannot verify/trust the source. Thus, I suppose my dual-boot questions are moot. Anyway, thanks again.
Quote from: techie on July 22, 2015, 12:18:48 AM
...... If you tell it to check for updates and updates are available it will start downloading the updates immediately. ....
So, I guess my scenario, for dialup users wouldn't work.
If it's a desktop, a dialup user isn't likely to pack it up and go to a hotspot routinely, just to check for updates.
You can see what it looks like in Windows 10 when a restart is needed for a security update in the attached image. Partially covered by the days to change the restart to is the hour/minute AM/PM option to change the restart time as well as the button to "Restart now".
Windows 10 Automatic Updates Start Causing Problems
With just four days left before launch, Windows 10's policy of automatic updates has run into its first major problem and it is causing many PCs to stop working correctly.
The flaw revolves around Nvidia graphics cards with users taking to Nvidia's forums to report Windows Update is automatically installing new drivers which break multimonitor setups, SLI (dual card) configurations and can even stop PCs booting entirely which pushes Windows 10 into its emergency recovery mode.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2015/07/25/windows-10-automatic-update-problems/
I am all for automatic Windows Updates because I think for the "greater good", keeping systems current does more good. But as I noted long ago, forcing 3rd party driver updates via WU would be a mistake.
I have been defending Microsoft's decision to force WU on us because of that greater good - but I am now at a turning point. I am a long time multi-monitor user to the point I don't understand how anyone, including me, could ever live with just one monitor. And I have a NVIDIA card installed in this system. I am just glad I have NVIDIA GeForce Experience set to yell at me and not automatically install updates or this latest conflict between WU and NVIDIA AU (automatic update) may have snagged me too. And then I would have been beyond the turning point.
MS has 3 days to fix this.
Any links to this Emergency Recovery Mode?
If a computer doesn't boot, it is pretty hard to undo a bad update. (I make images and that would be my fix. But most users complain "it is too hard to learn how to do this".)
Microsoft releases tool to hide or block unwanted Windows 10 updates
Windows 10 testers who've complained about mandatory updates in Microsoft's new operating system might have a solution at hand. The tool, available as an optional download, lets you hide or block any update for Windows or a hardware driver.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-releases-tool-to-hide-or-block-unwanted-windows-10-updates/
Comment: The article notes that in Windows 10, System Restore is turned off by default.
Seems like they are slowly getting the message.
Quote from: techie on July 21, 2015, 10:11:31 PM
My way to it in Windows 10 or Windows 8.1.
Right click start button, left click system, on the left side pane left click Advanced system settings. Choose hardware tab at the top, left click choose device installation settings, change the radio button to No, let me choose what to do, now change the additional radio button to Never install driver software from Windows updates. P.S. Save changes before closing.
I believe you will no longer receive device driver updates, from Windows.
In windows 7 or Vista right click my computer, left click properties and follow the rest of the above from advanced system settings.
As I stated previously, you can turn off device driver automatic updates. You can't turn off security updates.
It's not just Nvidia, it's just one, of the problems. I've had to do rollbacks on Intel drivers as well.
Disabling device driver automatic updates did not work for me on Build 10240. The latest nVidia driver was still installed. The one feature change I had made that was not removed in that build (or added due to my and others strong complaints) was System Protection being disabled. In previous builds, I had to manually enable System Protection.
The testing of drivers needs better quality control. If MS is certifying it, it needs to be well tested before it's pushed out.
I have found that there really isn't anything special needed for most drivers. If it works in Win 7, Win 8, it has so far worked in Win 10.
It seems the problems are coming from the Win 10 certified drivers??? If it's not broke don't fix it. If it's an upgrade and win 7 or 8 drivers are working, don't crash the system with a different version driver, if it's not ready.
Is Win 10 really ready for prime time? Some apps aren't, some bugs do still exist. Manufactures are pushing to get drivers updated, instead of tested, in most cases what they already have.