Pale Moon Version 25.0 Released

[Corrine]

You've lost me, Panos.  I'm not seeing what the problem is.

[DR M]

You've lost me, Panos.  I'm not seeing what the problem is.

Sorry, Corrine!!!!  :lol:

Well.. What I mean is that the appearance of google page is different after the update. It was look like this months ago. Recently, google page in Pale Moon was just like it is now in IE (please see the attachments in the previous post).

Also... When I search for an image (write a word in google bar and then choose images), the page I get is different from IE's and also different from what it was before the update. Only a small amount of images in every page. Please, try it. Search for an image in IE and in Pale Moon to see what I mean. It looks like I use an older version of Firefox or IE.

I know that perhaps I am saying nonsense but something is changed for sure!  :smash:

[Pete!]

Pure speculation:

Remember when some webmasters used a browser detector and showed you a different page if you had Netscape than if you had IE?
For instance... As I recall, one of them couldn't handle iframes.

If I boot up my old Win 98 computer with FF 2.0.0.20, and open Google, I see a different page than I see with Win 8.1 and FF 33.0.

Since this version of PaleMoon is "different"....
Is it possible that Google doesn't recognize it (yet), and shows the old page by default?

[plodr]

Forget what I posted. I forgot I updated Palemoon on the computer I'm currently on.

That is not Palemoon 24, it is 25.

When I head here https://www.whatismybrowser.com/
it correctly identifies my browser as Palemoon 25 on Win 7.
So, Pete, some sites are recognizing it correctly.

[Digerati]

All browsers and websites should conform to the W3 standards so all webpages look exactly the same, regardless the browser used. And that makes sense. Why should the developer be required to develop, and then maintain different pages for different browsers? That would be a huge waste of resources and would potentially lock out some potential customers.

This happened before when almost the entire world conformed to IE6 proprietary standards to take advantage of IE6 features. It locked out many FF and Netscape users. So starting with IE7, even MS started making IE use industry standard protocols.

[Pete!]

All browsers and websites should conform to the W3 standards so all webpages look exactly the same, regardless the browser used. And that makes sense. Why should the developer be required to develop, and then maintain different pages for different browsers? That would be a huge waste of resources and would potentially lock out some potential customers.

This happened before when almost the entire world conformed to IE6 proprietary standards to take advantage of IE6 features. It locked out many FF and Netscape users. So starting with IE7, even MS started making IE use industry standard protocols.

When I made my last post, I was looking at Google in the two browsers at the same time.
FF 2.x and FF 33 were actually showing me slightly different pages.
Similarly, DR M's attachments, were not identical...

One of the reasons I felt overdue for a newer OS, was an increasing number of websites, I couldn't use.
"Noscript" was more than a security measure, I saved me from innumerable "script timeout" notices.

If Google wants to take over the world, it might make sense for them to also cater to "update challenged" troglodytes.

Just wondering/speculating ..... If Google didn't recognize a browser, would it default to the simplest version of the page?

[Corrine]

Bill, it isn't anything to do with developing website pages for different browsers.  Rather, it is websites recognizing and accepting different browsers.  Pale Moon is no longer based on Firefox ESD 24.  It now has its own GUID. 

Pete, I think Panos is too young to remember Netscape.  :D

Now I understand what you meant, Panos.  I always use Bing (and never search from the address bar), and the display is the same whether I use Pale Moon 25, Firefox 33 or IE 11.  Actually going to Google images with Pale Moon, I see a difference there.  If you elect to use Pale Moon, the only solution until Google catches up is as explained in What to do when a website doesn't recognize Pale Moon.

The instructions are customized for Google below.  If you're going to copy/paste, it would be best to open a new Window instead of tab so you can go back and forth between the config page and here.

• Open a new Pale Moon window and type about:config
  
• Right-click on the page that opens and select New > String
  
• Type (or copy/paste) the following to create a Google preference value:  general.useragent.override.google.com
  
• You will be prompted for the value, which is what will essentially tell Google to see PaleMoon as Firefox.  This is where a new window will come in handy so you can toggle back here and copy the following to paste into the value:
  

Code Select Expand

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:25.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/24.9 PaleMoon/25.0

• Close the about:config page and test Google.
  

[JDBush61]

Pete, I think Panos is too young to remember Netscape.  :D

I'm not too young to remember Netscape.  :wink:
For many years it was all I used. I miss the little Netscape icon.

[DR M]

Who told you that I don't remember Netscape???? I just don't know what it is!!!  :laughing:

Anyway! Corrine, I followed your instructions above. Nothing changed. Then I thought to change general.useragent.override.google.com to general.useragent.override.google.com.cy. It worked. Now, my google page and everything that is linked to it (images etc.) is fine.

Question: This trick makes Pale Moon pretend that it is Firefox? How I will realize that finally Google recognizes Pale Moon? Do we know that this will happen one day?

Thank you!  :rose:

[plodr]

As I find sites that do not display in PM 25, but do in FF, I'll post here
http://www.hbo.com/  (page stays black) in FF, I get a spinning whitish wheel and then the schedule appears.

[ky331]

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6200

Change in approach for Pale Moon web identification:

the users have spoken, and Pale Moon has listened...

the problem of websites not using current-day capabilities detection methods and falling for "assuming capabilities based on an arbitrary ID string" is more widespread than anticipated.... so [effective with the next "point release", Pale Moon] will change the approach for a default installation of Pale Moon to include the "Firefox Compatibility" mode flag as enabled again (with a simple checkbox in Options to switch it off and on).

[Corrine]

Although not something Moonchild prefers to do, the problem should be solved in the next release:  Change in approach for Pale Moon web identification:

One of the impacting changes in v25.0 of Pale Moon has been the removal of the "Firefox" portion from Pale Moon's user agent.

Although this is generally considered in the developer and power user circles to be the right thing to do, because of the inherent problems attached to "lying about which browser you are", the problem of websites not using current-day capabilities detection methods and falling for "assuming capabilities based on an arbitrary ID string" is more widespread than anticipated. This includes big sites like Google, Apple's iCloud, Netflix, internal company sites, banking sites and even embedded web administration pages in routers :!:

This is one of the points where the interests of the general audience and the desired direction of software developers clash - and I will personally continue to work in the intended mode (non-compatible) with a small handful of workarounds on a domain-by-domain basis for the few problematic sites I visit, but will change the approach for a default installation of Pale Moon to include the "Firefox Compatibility" mode flag as enabled again (with a simple checkbox in Options to switch it off and on).

Despite the desired development direction, the inconvenience caused for users is simply too great as well as the resistance of websites contacted, who, despite using 21st century web design techniques and layouts for display, are apparently not willing to abandon old, limited and often incorrect detection methods. Maybe another few years down the road this can be attempted again, hoping for progress in the area of website development, but for now: the users have spoken, and Pale Moon has listened.

[ky331]

Pale Moon 25.0.2 (2014-10-24)

This is a small update to address a number of teething problems with the new milestone release.

Fixes/changes:

•Added a "Firefox compatibility mode" selection in Options -> Advanced.
This mode is enabled by default (reluctantly so), because too many websites (including some very big players who, themselves, promote an Open Web...) still use very poor browser detection methods based on arbitrary User Agent string comparisons, not catering to alternative browsers, and the resulting user experience being poor (being presented with mobile site layouts, broken pages, or even being flat-out refused service because someone exercises freedom of choice for web browser used). This should alleviate most, if not all, issues with browser-discriminating websites.

•Improved active tab display on particularly dark personas.
People using "black" personas/lightweight themes should now have a lot less difficulty distinguishing the active tab.

•Disabled SSL 3.0 by default (to put a muzzle on the POODLE).
Please note that this may cause issues with some poorly configured web servers (usually ones with a hopelessly broken security setup that do not support TLS 1.2 or secure (re)negotiation of the protocol).

•Fixed add-on update issue (that was preventing update checking through addons.palemoon.org).

•Fixed the redundant redundancy in asking redundantly if the browser would be allowed to ask to install an extension when not on addons.mozilla.org.

•Fixed the internal UA-sniffing insanity that broke devtools in a few different and colorful ways.

[plodr]

I'm happy to report that I applied the update, went to the hbo site and all works well.
:thumbsup: to Moonchild for fixing this.

[DR M]

Corrine, I followed your instructions above. Nothing changed. Then I thought to change general.useragent.override.google.com to general.useragent.override.google.com.cy. It worked. Now, my google page and everything that is linked to it (images etc.) is fine.

Question: This trick makes Pale Moon pretend that it is Firefox? How I will realize that finally Google recognizes Pale Moon? Do we know that this will happen one day?

Hello!

As I mentioned, I followed Corrine's instructions, and my google page is ok. Is there something to be done to reverse that action, now, after the last update?

Personally, I unchecked the option Use Firefox Compatibility Mode. I don't want my browser pretenting that it is Firefox. I don't know if I am correct. I suppose that a new update will fix all issues?