Author Topic: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........  (Read 14117 times)

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Offline Assarbad

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2006, 10:10:24 PM »
not so it was from Xerox Park
True so far ...

and he saw it on a special tour and then went back and delveloped  the software for it and xerox didn't think of going to court
There have been other mouse-driven applications long before Windows, namely GEM and the Apple

 :smash:
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Offline Profixer

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 09:37:40 AM »
Anyone who thinks that the Patent system is good for protecting people who have put down alot of work, need only read the story about Håkan Lans, the swede whom invented the colour monitor and satnav display system...  which was basically stolen from him by americn industry in a typical sneaky legal way resulting in him getting practically nothing, and having to pay all the legal costs 2 million US dollars for a case which he lost where he was clearly the patent holder... Håkan is now basically ruined... he has never received true recognition... and I doubt many people have ever even heard of his name... his latest appeal was granted, but judged before there was even a hearing... which sounds like some worried industries (especially the defence industry), are putting pressure on the US courts that they dont wanna pay up for licenses of this patent...  it seems that US patents are the only ones that are allowed to be applied... European, and other patents are simply stolen by large US corportations, ignored and end up in court for 20 years until the patent holder has no money left....

Cool system....
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Offline Totro

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 09:51:37 PM »
Profixer,  :)

Here is something to keep the pot boiling ...  :shock:

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/7359/53/

Makes you wonder ...


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Offline Profixer

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2006, 02:36:45 PM »
Yeah I saw that this morning... basically the idea is to sue an SMB (which they must win of course), to prove to all the corporates that it CAN happen... of course MS cant go around sueing everyone, and its unlikely that they would win / get much out of it in the cases where they do win...  but the fact is... it creates the FUD, and thats what they want...

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Offline mitch

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2006, 04:21:11 PM »
yep!
on my earlier post that small company that was going after big corps for blackmail

well they got over a million dollars seed money from one of the microsoft big kids !!!!
sounds like they are at again!

i just got tired of MS releasing beta software, then updates for 3 years and then a new windows that "solved all the problems" and doing it all over again
and then i had to do the yearly payment for my av and stuff


so will stick to my linux and open source

and wonder how much safer the net would be for everyone if ie was never created !

and if you want a good example of big company small person... look at who "invented" television ;-DDDDDD
thank you RCA. well not quite

Offline mikey

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2006, 05:12:03 PM »
I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is. Why was the topic started?

Was it to point out that corruption exists in a particular gov entity? Since everyone knows that all gov entities worldwide are corrupt to some degree, I can't see that as the reason.

Was it to point out the relatively new complexity surrounding the legislation of concepts dealing with computing and the developing industries? That would be much to obvious.

Was it to point out more cases of abuse by those in power...the hierarchy of todays society? Again, much to obvious.

Was it to promote anarchy by saying that we don't need any protections in place? Since most folk prefer to get paid for their work and would like to see their efforts protected, I can't imagine that to be the purpose even though it seems to be just that.

In addition to my curiosity about the purpose of this topic, I am also curious to know if those with such strong opinions here also have any solutions to propose? Is there any viable remedies in this endeavor/thread? Perhaps I just missed the point and reasoning here. Can someone spell it out to my simple minded self? TIA

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Offline Assarbad

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2006, 07:40:44 PM »
and wonder how much safer the net would be for everyone if ie was never created !
I wonder how much safer the net would be for everyone if the IE was never used!

But I have to admit I like Windows, in particular Windows 2000 and XP. I like them because I know the kernel structures and know its beauty as well as the ugly "face". Yes, I am not too shy to say that I like a Microsoft product.

In addition to my curiosity about the purpose of this topic, I am also curious to know if those with such strong opinions here also have any solutions to propose? Is there any viable remedies in this endeavor/thread? Perhaps I just missed the point and reasoning here. Can someone spell it out to my simple minded self?
Easy: no software patents. Tell me what's wrong with this? They didn't exist before, so why introduce them? (Well this doesn't hold for the US, of course, where basically everything is patentable ...)
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Offline mikey

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2006, 01:11:15 AM »
Quote
Easy: no software patents.

If this is a solution, then perhaps you can explain to me how someone can protect his investment in time and effort developing a new idea/concept, his investment of then putting that idea/concept through R&D, and the investment of any manufacturing/tooling and marketing for this new work product. Perhaps you really believe that software engineers and their teams don't deserve to be able to feed their families from the profits of their work.

Of course, this train of thought doesn't address those who would lay false claim to a patent. Scam artists exist in all industries and in every level thereof. That's just a fact of life that we all must deal with. Personally, I'm glad that protections are in place to protect those of us who have made the investments.

As I said earlier, I don't really have a defined opinion about this particular issue of software patents. However, as someone who spent most of his adult life working in manufacturing, I am all to familiar with the necessity of the patent process. In most cases, it protects us from those who would be thieves...those who would make their way by using someone else's work.
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Offline Assarbad

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2006, 10:12:05 AM »
Quote
Easy: no software patents.

If this is a solution, then perhaps you can explain to me how someone can protect his investment in time and effort developing a new idea/concept, his investment of then putting that idea/concept through R&D, and the investment of any manufacturing/tooling and marketing for this new work product. Perhaps you really believe that software engineers and their teams don't deserve to be able to feed their families from the profits of their work.
No I can't. There is probably no solution other than to introduce software patents since we see that the national economies of all the countries where no software patents exist (e.g. countries of Old Yurop) are crashing while the economy of the US (where software patents exist) flourishes as it did never before ... this is a direct result from all the IT companies going bankrupt because of the lack of software patents.

C'mon many ideas are based on a fundament of other ideas. This leads to two conclusions for me: 1.) almost no idea today can be new enough to be patented (probably ~1% of the currently granted applications fall in this category) 2.) if our ancestors would have been as strict with their ideas, we would still be at the development stage of the middle ages (which also means we could be further without patents already).
 
Of course, this train of thought doesn't address those who would lay false claim to a patent. Scam artists exist in all industries and in every level thereof. That's just a fact of life that we all must deal with. Personally, I'm glad that protections are in place to protect those of us who have made the investments.
... in software? How much software have you written in your life? Was it for a huge corporation or a small-medium sized company? What was the stance of the company towards software patents? Why?
I stated before (in the other related thread) that I am fine with a mechanism in the current society that "protects" implementation details of physical objects. But not software.

Why? Well, try copy (leaving patents and copyright aside) a car. How much did it cost? Now try the same with a software! Comparison?

That's why I also hate the so-called protection mechanisms for software/movies/music that has been implemented in the last years. If you know how much the average musician gets from the music industry you are most likely as shocked as I am. Interestingly the corporations enforcing these mechanisms on the rest of the world have not dared at first to introduce these mechanisms into the US which but was done reportedly slow in the last time ...
Well and you can see where the desire for more and more and more [...] profit leads us if you look at the Sony Rootkit case and others. I mean seriously, not only did they install a stealth rootkit on the system - no, it was so badly implemented that it put the whole system at risk (and I don't mean that "blabla hides files from AVs" ... and yes, I fully analysed the Sony Rootkit myself). Is there still someone in this all so good society who as an idea of the terms "moral" and "ethics"?

Oh and to add insult to injury: I was not particularly impressed by Lord of the Rings (1st!), yet I bought the DVD. Just to see - on the DVD - an advert for the extended edition which I could have spent 2 months later ... great. Where I come from this is called: "Betrug". And yes, I haven't seen part 2 and 3 yet.
Since that time I have been in cinema two or three times (where two of these were European films and one Asian). Protection furthers creativity, huh? And the dropping sales are only the consequence of all the pirating, huh? Interesting news for you, the majority of Hollywood movies sucks at least since 2000 or so. Especially since there are more attempts to make sequels instead of creating something really new ...

Oh, and by the way. I have seen some evil Ukrainians pirating software and movies and music. They think they can do this because, ehrm the A and the S are so close on the keyboard so no one would dare to intervene anyway, because everyone things UA is a spelling mistake. Or was it because the average Ukrainian would have to work something like 3-5 months for a Vista Ultimate edition ... darn, now I don't remember. Anyway, let's fight this criminal bunch of people ... let's declare them a rogue state!

As I said earlier, I don't really have a defined opinion about this particular issue of software patents. However, as someone who spent most of his adult life working in manufacturing, I am all to familiar with the necessity of the patent process. In most cases, it protects us from those who would be thieves...those who would make their way by using someone else's work.
Wait, so you say that thanks to this protection corporations such as Microsoft could not have gained their monopolistic position in the market, because the protections in place would have kept them from stealing ideas (in software) from others. Hmm ... interesting point .........................

Actually I should try to apply for a patent about breathing through special gas masks (to be described). While ordinary "breathing" would be prior art, these gas masks would be something new and it would be a booming business in near future when the atmosphere of our planet has just become a stinking balloon of unhealthy crap. Imagine the market 6 billion people who need to breathe and a growing number of customers every day. Great idea. It's cool to imagine things without moral boundaries and money as the center of my thoughts ... but nah, I don't like it anyways ...
:smash:

Really fellows, get a grip on reality. You say patents pay your bills and allow you to make a living - I say patents kill people. You say patents further creativity - I say they stifle creativity and competition. You say patents allow to assess risks - I say they create risks.

If you want to know what I am talking about, go to any so-called developing country whose development is artificially inhibited by patents (practically all of them where patents have not been - at least partially - banned)! Don't take the tourist bus/tour, though. Take the time and explore the slums ... nah, I don't talk about the slums where you get killed, I talk about the slums where people are too poor to fill their plates on a regular basis, yet noble enough to offer you, a stranger, food that you will not appreciate half as much as they would. Take a look around you in this world, more than half of the population of earth fits into the described group, so you should be able to easily find them. Let's see how you think about it after you are back from these places. About sharing of knowledge and all that.
Also -- learn new languages ... it will open new views and insights - even a whole new life as some philosophers put it.

PS: I haven't marked sarcasm explicitly, but since most of you are native speakers you'll surely find it ;)
Oliver (working at FRISK but posting here as a private person!)

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Offline mikey

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2006, 04:43:02 PM »
I think you have finally turned my thinking around. In fact, I think I can take your school of thought even further.

Here in my local community, I take great issue with the way in which our local police behave in certain circumstances. By following this anarchistic thinking, I should work to have the police removed instead of working to make changes. Thx for setting me in the right direction.

Quote
Oh, and by the way. I have seen some evil Ukrainians pirating software and movies and music. They think they can do this because, ehrm the A and the S are so close on the keyboard so no one would dare to intervene anyway, because everyone things UA is a spelling mistake. Or was it because the average Ukrainian would have to work something like 3-5 months for a Vista Ultimate edition ... darn, now I don't remember. Anyway, let's fight this criminal bunch of people ... let's declare them a rogue state!

This particular paragraph has really moved me into your way of thinking. If we just remove all governance, these folk wont then be forced into criminal actions. No laws...no crime. This thinking would even solve all the problems of the Ukrainian economy. That's not to mention all the others in the world who struggle for a living including the millions of Americans who also struggle. Without governance, regulation, and laws, no one would then ever be criminal in their actions.

Yep, I really think you've come up with a good and viable solution to all the issues of the world...when a governance, law or issue gets in the way, just remove it or ignore it and continue on. To hell with making changes in the existing systems. Anarchy and thieving is so much simpler.

Anyway, thx for setting me straight. Without your guidance, I would have continued to fight injustices instead of just working my way around them.

BTW I wonder how many folk understand the difference between those who develop applications by throwing a few scripts into a GUI and those who actually engineer the code. But I guess it doesn't matter now since we have established the fact that it is better to just take someones work and use/sell it without paying for the license. Yep, making theft legal through anarchy is definitely the solution here.

Thx again for your help,

Mike

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Offline Assarbad

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2006, 06:29:22 PM »
I think you have finally turned my thinking around. In fact, I think I can take your school of thought even further.

Here in my local community, I take great issue with the way in which our local police behave in certain circumstances. By following this anarchistic thinking, I should work to have the police removed instead of working to make changes. Thx for setting me in the right direction.
You are welcome.

This particular paragraph has really moved me into your way of thinking. If we just remove all governance, these folk wont then be forced into criminal actions. No laws...no crime. This thinking would even solve all the problems of the Ukrainian economy. That's not to mention all the others in the world who struggle for a living including the millions of Americans who also struggle. Without governance, regulation, and laws, no one would then ever be criminal in their actions.

Yep, I really think you've come up with a good and viable solution to all the issues of the world...when a governance, law or issue gets in the way, just remove it or ignore it and continue on. To hell with making changes in the existing systems. Anarchy and thieving is so much simpler.

Anyway, thx for setting me straight. Without your guidance, I would have continued to fight injustices instead of just working my way around them.

BTW I wonder how many folk understand the difference between those who develop applications by throwing a few scripts into a GUI and those who actually engineer the code. But I guess it doesn't matter now since we have established the fact that it is better to just take someones work and use/sell it without paying for the license. Yep, making theft legal through anarchy is definitely the solution here.

Thx again for your help,

Mike
Again, you are welcome, also thanks for intentionally moving it into the "right" direction. Really moving ...

BTW I wonder how many folk understand the difference between those who develop applications by throwing a few scripts into a GUI and those who actually engineer the code. But I guess it doesn't matter now since we have established the fact that it is better to just take someones work and use/sell it without paying for the license. Yep, making theft legal through anarchy is definitely the solution here.
Yap, seems like. I wonder where I have my GUI and scripts in kernel mode, though. Gotta check that in the DDK ... darn there must be something.

... oh, never mind, just my stupidity and incompetence, I'll turn back to you once I've figured out how to integrate a GUI into my kernel drivers so I can easily throw in a few scripts to fit the stereotype ... until then ...

 :2cents:
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Offline Coldmoon

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2006, 10:26:58 PM »
Oliver,
I am sincerely disappointed in the way you are conducting yourself in public, especially noting your official FRISK signature. So I am going to give you some free advice I hope you will take to heart.

Getting up to express your opinion is what all of us who have been fighting for their particular cause have been doing for a lot longer than you have, and to be honest, we learned very early that rhetoric gains little more than rhetoric from the other side of the debate. If you want others to take you seriously, you need to learn to actually communicate rather than emote and to think your imagery through before trying to express it in written form.

If your message be true, you don’t have to try and bully your way through your point of view…
Coldmoon over dark water...

Offline mitch

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2006, 11:46:37 PM »
come on guys
we are all adults here and thought we had out grown the flames and such

one more and i will block this post !!!!!!!!!!
take it down a notch now
 i should not have to do this post !


feel free to edit your post when you cool off and make it more like just a friendly conversation without the cheap shots

Offline Assarbad

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2006, 11:57:36 PM »
As I pointed out in my previous post, I am not interested in ad-hominem attacks. Instead I want the discussion partner to take my arguments (the ones belonging to the topic) and either blow them away by better ones (be they opposing or not) or digest them and think about them or react in another productive way. So if coldmoon could keep the ad-hominem attacks in PMs and mikey could actually reply on-topic (e.g. answering one or two questions) with at least some non-cynical sentences we can continue like grown-ups ;)

As far as I am concerned a discussion is a give and take of arguments. Not of ad-hominem attacks.

BTW: Fixed my signature ...

Cheers,
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Offline Corrine

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Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2006, 12:59:08 AM »
Although off-topic with regard to patents, this does relate to points you raised, Oliver. 

The roads in America are NOT paved with gold.  The wealth is in the hands of the few, as is the power.  Granted, most of our poor are better off than the starving in 3rd world countries. 

Although I was born in this country and have lived in the same area all my life, I would suggest that you are a bit off with regard to the regurgitation from Hollywood.  The year 2000 is much to generous as to the quality of films emanating from there.

As to patents, well, I've been in that discussion already and will bow out because we will just continue to butt heads on that issue.  :)

Since this topic is no longer "web news", I'm going to move it to the LzD Lounge.


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