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Miscellaneous => LandzDown Lounge => Topic started by: Profixer on November 21, 2006, 03:00:20 PM

Title: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 21, 2006, 03:00:20 PM
Please, only people with the opinion that software patents should be banned in this thread... any opposing opinions are not welcome /allowed in this thread....
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 21, 2006, 03:03:42 PM
Please, only people with the opinion that software patents should be banned in this thread... any opposing opinions are not welcome /allowed in this thread....
OK... and what do we talk about? :blink:
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 21, 2006, 03:07:09 PM
I dunno... we all have the same opinion, so its not really a lively discussion
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 21, 2006, 03:11:43 PM
Well, that was pointless then, man ... no? :tease: :lol:
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 21, 2006, 03:13:53 PM
well I was advised to do this... but it didnt seem to acheive anything....

so... ah well....
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mikey on November 21, 2006, 03:51:50 PM
Please, only people with the opinion that software patents should be banned in this thread... any opposing opinions are not welcome /allowed in this thread....

Hey guys, I'm a bit curious. I was reading the 'MS at it again....' thread with a little interest yesterday and then today I saw this thread. I probably wouldn't have replied to the 'MS' thread because I don't as yet have a defined opinion. The reason I don't have a defined opinion is because I understand that computing and the wares in particular present a brand new realm of thought when considering such things as protecting 'work product'...which I personally believe in quite strongly. But, that isn't the point of my post here. 

Now I have a question or two; What would happen to me if I should post an opposing comment here? Is this thread just a joke?...or what? Perhaps I just haven't had enough coffee this morning to gain any real understanding. I tend to be a bit slow in the mornings now. :)


Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 21, 2006, 04:11:17 PM
Now I have a question or two; What would happen to me if I should post an opposing comment here?
I assume Profixer would get really upset! Be sure to read his signature  :hysterical:
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mikey on November 21, 2006, 04:19:21 PM
Ahh, the fog is starting to lift a bit. :)  :lol:
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 21, 2006, 04:40:01 PM
Season of mist and mellow fruitfulness!
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 21, 2006, 05:31:49 PM
I just made a webshop.... it took me quite a while... a couple of years to get all the bugs ironed out.... I think I have had some great ideas... and used all the standard stuff like pay with credit card and a shopping cart etc... all pretty standard things in a shop.... but ****!! I just found this?!??!?!? http://webshop.ffii.de/ and I have wasted loads of money in coding time now... what do I do??

Humm quite interesting scenario...(fictional of course) and also interesting is the hilarity of the patented webshop... I wasnt aware that concepts such as shopping cart and preview were such original inventions with no prior art available? just because they are electronic implementations of something which is pretty much a generally free concept... A shopping cart... lets see... a method of carrying objects around a shop which you then take to the checkout?... hummm the electronic implementation does not in anyway change this basic concept, and it certainly doesnt appear to add anything to it either....  previewing a larger version of a smaller image while still be able to see the other image?... hummm do I infringe on this patent by taking my magnifying glass to the screen and enlarging the image for one of my eyes while still seing the smaller version with the other?... patents like this are nonsense, and should never have been issued....

Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 21, 2006, 05:42:37 PM
for anyone that is interested, the patent application description of "Click to preview" is as follows

"Disclosed is a method of implementing a preview window in an object oriented programming system that includes an application having at least a first panel and a second panel that are selectively displayable on a display screen. The second planel displays underlying information and the first panel displays an abbreviated representation of the underlying information. In the present invention, the user can temporarily display a preview window that contains underlying information while viewing the first panel"

Well darn... if that doesnt just sound like "zooming" but with pretty words put around it... this is one of the basic problems with patents... dressing the applications in such language gives the patent applicant the chance to patent something which is essentially quite an abstract concept.... and what is terribly annoying is, despite all this precision legal jargon, you could re-invent this ivention using a "NON object oriented programming system" which technically should NOT infringe upon the patent... but do you think thats what litigators come after you for? NO... they come after you for the abstract concept.... something which was never expressed in the original patent application (because it wouldnt have, and shouldnt have been granted in that case)....
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 21, 2006, 05:48:22 PM
What would happen to me if I should post an opposing comment here? Is this thread just a joke?...or what?

Mikey... you may only reply here if you are of the opinion that software patents are bbbbbaaaaddddddddddd
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Corrine on November 21, 2006, 08:31:12 PM
But what is claimed in "Click to preview"?  Anything can be disclosed, including the kitchen sink.  It is the claims that determine the breadth of the patent.

And, yes, I replied here anyway even though I am in favor of patents -- they've paid my salary for 40 years.  I'm not saying the system is perfect, most particularly when it comes to software patents.  Even further from perfect are the courts considering patent infringement. 
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 21, 2006, 08:56:24 PM
The question was never anything to do with whether or not someone gets their salary because of patents in place. The question is to do with the ethics of patenting knowledge... and software is an expression of knowledge...  what I and Assarbad have been discussing is the fact that knowledge is free, and no-one has the right to say... "you may not express that knowledge because I have already done it"... thats just wrong in my opinion..

anyway, its quite apparent that this subject is quite touchy for all, so I suggest we lock this thread and move on.. otherwise we are gonna end up in too many socio-economical-philosphical arguments..
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mitch on November 21, 2006, 09:57:44 PM
yep i agree with the topic !!!!!
there are professional companies now that find a old patent and then sue someone with $ for violating it !!!!
and the way the system works here is if you want to fight it you need big $$$$$$$ and a staff of land sharks ( lawyers)
and have about 5 years or so to do nothing !!
can't remember all the names, but remember when a small non profitable company went after ibm and users of some old unix code?
the code had been made open source by ibm and a few big companies use it so they sent letters blackmailing them if they didn't pay $ to them !!! and the classic easier to pay than turn the sharks loose


well i sit here on my linux box typing away with 100% open source software
( ok i have a a/v on it, but it is more to make sure no window's buddies get anything)
ok i don't have realplayer on , but i am on a dialup and don't miss it at all !

i have nothing against pay for software, but if i spend the $ i still think it should work and not be in beta for 10 years ! and maybe they could protect the whole thing and not something that is in it !

NOTE" everyone knows that microsoft and bill gates invented the mouse ..right?
not so it was from Xerox Park and he saw it on a special tour and then went back and delveloped  the software for it
and xerox didn't think of going to court
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 21, 2006, 10:10:24 PM
not so it was from Xerox Park
True so far ...

and he saw it on a special tour and then went back and delveloped  the software for it and xerox didn't think of going to court
There have been other mouse-driven applications long before Windows, namely GEM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_Environment_Manager) and the Apple

 :smash:
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 22, 2006, 09:37:40 AM
Anyone who thinks that the Patent system is good for protecting people who have put down alot of work, need only read the story about Håkan Lans, the swede whom invented the colour monitor and satnav display system...  which was basically stolen from him by americn industry in a typical sneaky legal way resulting in him getting practically nothing, and having to pay all the legal costs 2 million US dollars for a case which he lost where he was clearly the patent holder... Håkan is now basically ruined... he has never received true recognition... and I doubt many people have ever even heard of his name... his latest appeal was granted, but judged before there was even a hearing... which sounds like some worried industries (especially the defence industry), are putting pressure on the US courts that they dont wanna pay up for licenses of this patent...  it seems that US patents are the only ones that are allowed to be applied... European, and other patents are simply stolen by large US corportations, ignored and end up in court for 20 years until the patent holder has no money left....

Cool system....
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Totro on November 22, 2006, 09:51:37 PM
Profixer,  :)

Here is something to keep the pot boiling ...  :shock:

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/7359/53/ (http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/7359/53/)

Makes you wonder ...


Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 23, 2006, 02:36:45 PM
Yeah I saw that this morning... basically the idea is to sue an SMB (which they must win of course), to prove to all the corporates that it CAN happen... of course MS cant go around sueing everyone, and its unlikely that they would win / get much out of it in the cases where they do win...  but the fact is... it creates the FUD, and thats what they want...

Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mitch on November 23, 2006, 04:21:11 PM
yep!
on my earlier post that small company that was going after big corps for blackmail

well they got over a million dollars seed money from one of the microsoft big kids !!!!
sounds like they are at again!

i just got tired of MS releasing beta software, then updates for 3 years and then a new windows that "solved all the problems" and doing it all over again
and then i had to do the yearly payment for my av and stuff


so will stick to my linux and open source

and wonder how much safer the net would be for everyone if ie was never created !

and if you want a good example of big company small person... look at who "invented" television ;-DDDDDD
thank you RCA. well not quite
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mikey on November 23, 2006, 05:12:03 PM
I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is. Why was the topic started?

Was it to point out that corruption exists in a particular gov entity? Since everyone knows that all gov entities worldwide are corrupt to some degree, I can't see that as the reason.

Was it to point out the relatively new complexity surrounding the legislation of concepts dealing with computing and the developing industries? That would be much to obvious.

Was it to point out more cases of abuse by those in power...the hierarchy of todays society? Again, much to obvious.

Was it to promote anarchy by saying that we don't need any protections in place? Since most folk prefer to get paid for their work and would like to see their efforts protected, I can't imagine that to be the purpose even though it seems to be just that.

In addition to my curiosity about the purpose of this topic, I am also curious to know if those with such strong opinions here also have any solutions to propose? Is there any viable remedies in this endeavor/thread? Perhaps I just missed the point and reasoning here. Can someone spell it out to my simple minded self? TIA

Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 23, 2006, 07:40:44 PM
and wonder how much safer the net would be for everyone if ie was never created !
I wonder how much safer the net would be for everyone if the IE was never used!

But I have to admit I like Windows, in particular Windows 2000 and XP. I like them because I know the kernel structures and know its beauty as well as the ugly "face". Yes, I am not too shy to say that I like a Microsoft product.

In addition to my curiosity about the purpose of this topic, I am also curious to know if those with such strong opinions here also have any solutions to propose? Is there any viable remedies in this endeavor/thread? Perhaps I just missed the point and reasoning here. Can someone spell it out to my simple minded self?
Easy: no software patents. Tell me what's wrong with this? They didn't exist before, so why introduce them? (Well this doesn't hold for the US, of course, where basically everything is patentable ...)
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mikey on November 24, 2006, 01:11:15 AM
Quote
Easy: no software patents.

If this is a solution, then perhaps you can explain to me how someone can protect his investment in time and effort developing a new idea/concept, his investment of then putting that idea/concept through R&D, and the investment of any manufacturing/tooling and marketing for this new work product. Perhaps you really believe that software engineers and their teams don't deserve to be able to feed their families from the profits of their work.

Of course, this train of thought doesn't address those who would lay false claim to a patent. Scam artists exist in all industries and in every level thereof. That's just a fact of life that we all must deal with. Personally, I'm glad that protections are in place to protect those of us who have made the investments.

As I said earlier, I don't really have a defined opinion about this particular issue of software patents. However, as someone who spent most of his adult life working in manufacturing, I am all to familiar with the necessity of the patent process. In most cases, it protects us from those who would be thieves...those who would make their way by using someone else's work.
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 24, 2006, 10:12:05 AM
Quote
Easy: no software patents.

If this is a solution, then perhaps you can explain to me how someone can protect his investment in time and effort developing a new idea/concept, his investment of then putting that idea/concept through R&D, and the investment of any manufacturing/tooling and marketing for this new work product. Perhaps you really believe that software engineers and their teams don't deserve to be able to feed their families from the profits of their work.
No I can't. There is probably no solution other than to introduce software patents since we see that the national economies of all the countries where no software patents exist (e.g. countries of Old Yurop) are crashing while the economy of the US (where software patents exist) flourishes as it did never before ... this is a direct result from all the IT companies going bankrupt because of the lack of software patents.

C'mon many ideas are based on a fundament of other ideas. This leads to two conclusions for me: 1.) almost no idea today can be new enough to be patented (probably ~1% of the currently granted applications fall in this category) 2.) if our ancestors would have been as strict with their ideas, we would still be at the development stage of the middle ages (which also means we could be further without patents already).
 
Of course, this train of thought doesn't address those who would lay false claim to a patent. Scam artists exist in all industries and in every level thereof. That's just a fact of life that we all must deal with. Personally, I'm glad that protections are in place to protect those of us who have made the investments.
... in software? How much software have you written in your life? Was it for a huge corporation or a small-medium sized company? What was the stance of the company towards software patents? Why?
I stated before (in the other related thread) that I am fine with a mechanism in the current society that "protects" implementation details of physical objects. But not software.

Why? Well, try copy (leaving patents and copyright aside) a car. How much did it cost? Now try the same with a software! Comparison?

That's why I also hate the so-called protection mechanisms for software/movies/music that has been implemented in the last years. If you know how much the average musician gets from the music industry you are most likely as shocked as I am. Interestingly the corporations enforcing these mechanisms on the rest of the world have not dared at first to introduce these mechanisms into the US which but was done reportedly slow in the last time ...
Well and you can see where the desire for more and more and more [...] profit leads us if you look at the Sony Rootkit case and others. I mean seriously, not only did they install a stealth rootkit on the system - no, it was so badly implemented that it put the whole system at risk (and I don't mean that "blabla hides files from AVs" ... and yes, I fully analysed the Sony Rootkit myself). Is there still someone in this all so good society who as an idea of the terms "moral" and "ethics"?

Oh and to add insult to injury: I was not particularly impressed by Lord of the Rings (1st!), yet I bought the DVD. Just to see - on the DVD - an advert for the extended edition which I could have spent 2 months later ... great. Where I come from this is called: "Betrug". And yes, I haven't seen part 2 and 3 yet.
Since that time I have been in cinema two or three times (where two of these were European films and one Asian). Protection furthers creativity, huh? And the dropping sales are only the consequence of all the pirating, huh? Interesting news for you, the majority of Hollywood movies sucks at least since 2000 or so. Especially since there are more attempts to make sequels instead of creating something really new ...

Oh, and by the way. I have seen some evil Ukrainians pirating software and movies and music. They think they can do this because, ehrm the A and the S are so close on the keyboard so no one would dare to intervene anyway, because everyone things UA is a spelling mistake. Or was it because the average Ukrainian would have to work something like 3-5 months for a Vista Ultimate edition ... darn, now I don't remember. Anyway, let's fight this criminal bunch of people ... let's declare them a rogue state!

As I said earlier, I don't really have a defined opinion about this particular issue of software patents. However, as someone who spent most of his adult life working in manufacturing, I am all to familiar with the necessity of the patent process. In most cases, it protects us from those who would be thieves...those who would make their way by using someone else's work.
Wait, so you say that thanks to this protection corporations such as Microsoft could not have gained their monopolistic position in the market, because the protections in place would have kept them from stealing ideas (in software) from others. Hmm ... interesting point .........................

Actually I should try to apply for a patent about breathing through special gas masks (to be described). While ordinary "breathing" would be prior art, these gas masks would be something new and it would be a booming business in near future when the atmosphere of our planet has just become a stinking balloon of unhealthy crap. Imagine the market 6 billion people who need to breathe and a growing number of customers every day. Great idea. It's cool to imagine things without moral boundaries and money as the center of my thoughts ... but nah, I don't like it anyways ...
:smash:

Really fellows, get a grip on reality. You say patents pay your bills and allow you to make a living - I say patents kill people. You say patents further creativity - I say they stifle creativity and competition. You say patents allow to assess risks - I say they create risks.

If you want to know what I am talking about, go to any so-called developing country whose development is artificially inhibited by patents (practically all of them where patents have not been - at least partially - banned)! Don't take the tourist bus/tour, though. Take the time and explore the slums ... nah, I don't talk about the slums where you get killed, I talk about the slums where people are too poor to fill their plates on a regular basis, yet noble enough to offer you, a stranger, food that you will not appreciate half as much as they would. Take a look around you in this world, more than half of the population of earth fits into the described group, so you should be able to easily find them. Let's see how you think about it after you are back from these places. About sharing of knowledge and all that.
Also -- learn new languages ... it will open new views and insights - even a whole new life as some philosophers put it.

PS: I haven't marked sarcasm explicitly, but since most of you are native speakers you'll surely find it ;)
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mikey on November 24, 2006, 04:43:02 PM
I think you have finally turned my thinking around. In fact, I think I can take your school of thought even further.

Here in my local community, I take great issue with the way in which our local police behave in certain circumstances. By following this anarchistic thinking, I should work to have the police removed instead of working to make changes. Thx for setting me in the right direction.

Quote
Oh, and by the way. I have seen some evil Ukrainians pirating software and movies and music. They think they can do this because, ehrm the A and the S are so close on the keyboard so no one would dare to intervene anyway, because everyone things UA is a spelling mistake. Or was it because the average Ukrainian would have to work something like 3-5 months for a Vista Ultimate edition ... darn, now I don't remember. Anyway, let's fight this criminal bunch of people ... let's declare them a rogue state!

This particular paragraph has really moved me into your way of thinking. If we just remove all governance, these folk wont then be forced into criminal actions. No laws...no crime. This thinking would even solve all the problems of the Ukrainian economy. That's not to mention all the others in the world who struggle for a living including the millions of Americans who also struggle. Without governance, regulation, and laws, no one would then ever be criminal in their actions.

Yep, I really think you've come up with a good and viable solution to all the issues of the world...when a governance, law or issue gets in the way, just remove it or ignore it and continue on. To hell with making changes in the existing systems. Anarchy and thieving is so much simpler.

Anyway, thx for setting me straight. Without your guidance, I would have continued to fight injustices instead of just working my way around them.

BTW I wonder how many folk understand the difference between those who develop applications by throwing a few scripts into a GUI and those who actually engineer the code. But I guess it doesn't matter now since we have established the fact that it is better to just take someones work and use/sell it without paying for the license. Yep, making theft legal through anarchy is definitely the solution here.

Thx again for your help,

Mike

Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 24, 2006, 06:29:22 PM
I think you have finally turned my thinking around. In fact, I think I can take your school of thought even further.

Here in my local community, I take great issue with the way in which our local police behave in certain circumstances. By following this anarchistic thinking, I should work to have the police removed instead of working to make changes. Thx for setting me in the right direction.
You are welcome.

This particular paragraph has really moved me into your way of thinking. If we just remove all governance, these folk wont then be forced into criminal actions. No laws...no crime. This thinking would even solve all the problems of the Ukrainian economy. That's not to mention all the others in the world who struggle for a living including the millions of Americans who also struggle. Without governance, regulation, and laws, no one would then ever be criminal in their actions.

Yep, I really think you've come up with a good and viable solution to all the issues of the world...when a governance, law or issue gets in the way, just remove it or ignore it and continue on. To hell with making changes in the existing systems. Anarchy and thieving is so much simpler.

Anyway, thx for setting me straight. Without your guidance, I would have continued to fight injustices instead of just working my way around them.

BTW I wonder how many folk understand the difference between those who develop applications by throwing a few scripts into a GUI and those who actually engineer the code. But I guess it doesn't matter now since we have established the fact that it is better to just take someones work and use/sell it without paying for the license. Yep, making theft legal through anarchy is definitely the solution here.

Thx again for your help,

Mike
Again, you are welcome, also thanks for intentionally moving it into the "right" direction. Really moving ...

BTW I wonder how many folk understand the difference between those who develop applications by throwing a few scripts into a GUI and those who actually engineer the code. But I guess it doesn't matter now since we have established the fact that it is better to just take someones work and use/sell it without paying for the license. Yep, making theft legal through anarchy is definitely the solution here.
Yap, seems like. I wonder where I have my GUI and scripts in kernel mode, though. Gotta check that in the DDK ... darn there must be something.

... oh, never mind, just my stupidity and incompetence, I'll turn back to you once I've figured out how to integrate a GUI into my kernel drivers so I can easily throw in a few scripts to fit the stereotype ... until then ...

 :2cents:
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Coldmoon on November 24, 2006, 10:26:58 PM
Oliver,
I am sincerely disappointed in the way you are conducting yourself in public, especially noting your official FRISK signature. So I am going to give you some free advice I hope you will take to heart.

Getting up to express your opinion is what all of us who have been fighting for their particular cause have been doing for a lot longer than you have, and to be honest, we learned very early that rhetoric gains little more than rhetoric from the other side of the debate. If you want others to take you seriously, you need to learn to actually communicate rather than emote and to think your imagery through before trying to express it in written form.

If your message be true, you don’t have to try and bully your way through your point of view…
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mitch on November 24, 2006, 11:46:37 PM
come on guys
we are all adults here and thought we had out grown the flames and such

one more and i will block this post !!!!!!!!!!
take it down a notch now
 i should not have to do this post !


feel free to edit your post when you cool off and make it more like just a friendly conversation without the cheap shots
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 24, 2006, 11:57:36 PM
As I pointed out in my previous post, I am not interested in ad-hominem attacks. Instead I want the discussion partner to take my arguments (the ones belonging to the topic) and either blow them away by better ones (be they opposing or not) or digest them and think about them or react in another productive way. So if coldmoon could keep the ad-hominem attacks in PMs and mikey could actually reply on-topic (e.g. answering one or two questions) with at least some non-cynical sentences we can continue like grown-ups ;)

As far as I am concerned a discussion is a give and take of arguments. Not of ad-hominem attacks.

BTW: Fixed my signature ...

Cheers,
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Corrine on November 25, 2006, 12:59:08 AM
Although off-topic with regard to patents, this does relate to points you raised, Oliver. 

The roads in America are NOT paved with gold.  The wealth is in the hands of the few, as is the power.  Granted, most of our poor are better off than the starving in 3rd world countries. 

Although I was born in this country and have lived in the same area all my life, I would suggest that you are a bit off with regard to the regurgitation from Hollywood.  The year 2000 is much to generous as to the quality of films emanating from there.

As to patents, well, I've been in that discussion already and will bow out because we will just continue to butt heads on that issue.  :)

Since this topic is no longer "web news", I'm going to move it to the LzD Lounge.
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mikey on November 25, 2006, 01:23:17 AM
I came into this thread without any real opinions about the patenting of softwares as opposed to other types of work product. However, the ranting through two different threads intrigued me. I asked for explanation and reasoning for the strong opinions and the purpose of this second thread. I also asked if anyone with these strong opinions had viable solutions. I've also asked how someone should protect themselves against thieves should your wishes be fullfilled. So far, all I've seen is sarcasm;
Quote
PS: I haven't marked sarcasm explicitly, but since most of you are native speakers you'll surely find it

Perhaps I didn't express myself well and you took offense to my questions. I don't know. If so, then I appologize. I wish you well, Assarbad, but I have no doubt about the impression folks unfortunate enough to be reading this will have. If this cause of yours is anything other than trying to rationalize thievery, as it now sounds to me, then I hope that there are others who can speak for that cause in a much better light.
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 25, 2006, 01:55:08 AM
The roads in America are NOT paved with gold.  The wealth is in the hands of the few, as is the power.  Granted, most of our poor are better off than the starving in 3rd world countries.
I am sorry if this impression was created by my previous post. I am well aware that the "gap" is getting bigger everywhere - and not at last because of patents.
Since I follow the daily press as well as other media I am also aware of the poverty in your country and it doesn't make things any better. Poor is poor always in relation to the living standards of the environment, so we don't have to blandish the poverty on the US by relating it to the poverty elsewhere.

Although I was born in this country and have lived in the same area all my life, I would suggest that you are a bit off with regard to the regurgitation from Hollywood.  The year 2000 is much to generous as to the quality of films emanating from there.
:lol:

As to patents, well, I've been in that discussion already and will bow out because we will just continue to butt heads on that issue.  :)
Well, frankly speaking I wouldn't mind to hear especially from you - someone working with patents (although maybe not software patents in particular) - some comments to the points I raised. I am open-minded enough to change my opinion if someone convinces me. Everyone is changing opinion every moment of his/her conscious life, although some choose to pretend to be 100% conservative. But the only argument that I've heard so far is related to revenues and this is a non-argument to me. At least "revenue" is not part of my ethical vocabulary - yet ethics are the standard I use to evaluate topics like "the patent system". So either we finish the discussion in dissent, which is just fine with me, or someone picks up the actual arguments of either side. I am fully okay if someone kicks around my arguments because that is what a discussion is (and should be) about. If I missed one point not related to revenue on the pro-patent side, please point me to it.

Oh, and since I forgot this before. The "patents kill" refers to the fact that the poor cannot afford the medicine to survive. Survival of the fittestrichest? :(

So far, all I've seen is sarcasm
Look again. There have been serious questions and serious arguments of which you took up not even one. And since sarcasm is a rhethoric way of expression you should probably ask what the intention of its use was/is. If you like I can colorize the parts of my post for you so you can distinguish the parts that are sarcastic from those that are ironic and from those that are meant as written ... either as PM or here.

Perhaps I didn't express myself well and you took offense to my questions.
Given the fact that I am the non-native speaker here it is more likely that I did not express myself well.

I wish you well, Assarbad, but I have no doubt about the impression folks unfortunate enough to be reading this will have.
That's the problem with (first) impressions. But I think I have spine enough to post under my real name, so I will stand future criticism of this opinion that I currently have. Also, I am sure many will not even bother to read this thread to its end either ...

BTW: I am open to attempts to convince me of your point of view. I may not fully adapt it, although I might, but you should give it a try ;)

If this cause of yours is anything other than trying to rationalize thievery, as it now sounds to me, then I hope that there are others who can speak for that cause in a much better light.
Well I hope so, since I could not make myself understood. And your extension of my ideas does not have my appreciation, indeed. In particular, my reaction would have been a different one had you picked up at least one of the non-sarcastic arguments/questions from my post and commented on it. But you chose to reply in a - to my impression - cynical way. Thus I chose to reply to you the same way, because I found your reply to be too "ad-hominem" for my taste ...

If you read through this thread and most other threads in which I am/was involved - not only in this forum - you'll find that I quote my discussion partners thoroughly and that I am very responsive - usually not picking just one single point of a previous post but going through them one by one. There is one exception to this: if I have to repeat myself over and over again. It's a matter of respect towards the discussion partner(s) for me.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Profixer on November 25, 2006, 06:39:14 AM
I think the interpretation of Olivers views as simply being anarchic and thieving is completely wrong, either by misreading his posts or simply misunderstanding between the posters.

Many people feel that patents help them pay the bills and put bread on the table... and I am sure this is correct... to a certain point...  but I promise you, this method of sustaining business will reach a tipping point... the point where people have got very good at litigation but forgotton how to develop. I do not know the extent of the patent warfield in the US (from an inside point-of-view), but if people really feel this way Mikey, that patents are a major reason they get paid, and something is not done about it, then within a certain amount of time, corporations will turn to their patent portfolios and say "how can we sue them?" instead of saying to their devs "how can we out-compete them?". This basically has two very very big problems... nothing is innovated, but even worse the company / company's employees do not improve their knowledge through lack of "training and diversification"... innovaters simply become another part of the assembly line, and fade into obscurity...


I remember (well I dont, I am too young), but I know from history that US used to make amazing stuff.... in the 40,50,60's...   what happened? America was was pouring out some amazing products... innovation at its best..... and the rest of the world was buy buy buying....  now you rarely hear of anything....  could this be due to the change in attitudes I have been talking about? US cars.... dont even get me started..... in the 50's, 60's WOW!! these were works of art!!... These days... it feels like Ford just slap them together with paper glue... now I am not drawing a connection directly to software patents here, or to patents in general... my point is that the "mindset" of american industry has changed from what it was 50 years ago... there is WAY too much emphasis now on cutting costs, slapping it together and getting it out there ASAP... also elimination of ANY competition...  a healthy industry is a healthy balance of competition (keeping everyone on their toes), innovation (new markets, new technologies, improvements on existing technologies) Also... I dont want to see some pro-US rant post shouted back at me about this... I am not claiming to know everything about US industry, but I am making an statement based on empirical observation... and that is that you never seem to hear about any new amazing product from the US in the european news anymore... and many of the european car "experts", and yes... I do watch alot of car programs... basically give US cars crappy reviews, and look back with affection at 50's and 60's when US cars really were cars

Anyway... I have to go to breakfast now... I am out travelling so I may not be able to response to a reply very quickly...
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: mikey on November 25, 2006, 03:42:25 PM
Hey Profixer,

I don't want to misunderstand anyone here so I ask; Are you trying to say that the world is running out of new ideas/concepts?  That is what I get from your post.

I certainly hope not because there are new patents filed in droves these days. I personally hold several patents...a couple of which actually generate revenue for my household. While I never marketed a product myself, I have sold the ideas to those who could implement them. If I hadn't used the patent system, my ideas could just as easily have been stolen.

One of my favorite success stories is about Bruce Johnson who invented the Breathe Right nasel strips. If he hadn't gotten a patent before submitting his idea to the company who bought his idea(CNS), he could have been ripped off.

Following this line of thinking, are there no new innovations being offered in software? Has the world already run out of new technologies in software development? After all that has gone on in this last decade, that is a very depressing thought. However, it is an idea that I don't share.

I'm still trying to figure out why you folk think it is alright to use/steal someone else's work without paying a royalty.

Perhaps this is just one of those things where customs clash. You guys keep talking about American ways as if there is something terribly wrong with the premises to which we live by. Well, I admit that corruption exists throughout all the systems in place. But as a whole, I believe Americans believe it to be wrong to make a living by marketing someone else's work without paying him for it.

So far, I haven't heard one word that even gives me pause to consider any other train of thought other than the ones I've already expressed here.

Is MS wrong? Are they just fraudulently making claim to patents? Possibly...maybe even probably. But is that a reason to throw out the entire system?...or is it a reason to reevaluate and possibly make changes in the system?

Well, I believe I now have my opinion pretty well in hand. I believe that anarchy and thievery is not the answer. I believe that stealing other's work to profiteer is immoral.

Anyway, I appreciate you guys trying to make your case here but I'm afraid it just isn't my cup of tea.

C Ya



Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Coldmoon on November 25, 2006, 05:02:25 PM
I may have been a bit forceful in my approach to my previous reply, but it has achieved its intended goal by getting this discussion back on-topic for which IFO am grateful because, contrary to what you may believe, I am sympathetic to some of the real arguments made up to this point.

What??? Yes, I am actually on-board with changing the system, but totally reject throwing it out with the wash water. This means that serious attention has to be drawn towards those aspects that MUST be changed, then to those that SHOULD be changed, and finally towards those we WISH to change. The first part is the most essential part of the formula to achieve real and lasting change here.

The number one issue IMHO concerns the use of litigation as a means of revenue generation which has been touched on several times. We know what is happening on a world view as all you need to do is to spend a few minutes every day reading the business news sections on your favorite publication or website. To nail this down, at least with how distorted the practice has become here in the US, I would draw your attention to a new advertising series I am seeing lately while watching SAT TV here in NC. Believe it or not, there are now ads being shown from certain types of “Lawyers” (same types that chase ambulances and try to sue when your coffee is too hot…) that ask “Do you believe your patent has been infringed? Well contact us and we will get you the money you deserve!”

This is more than enough to convince me (not that I already did not have a jilted view to begin with) that the US legal system has finally gone skipping down the lane whistling madly while slapping at imaginary flies… So now the question becomes one of whether it is actually the patent system itself or the legal system in general that is more broken?

After spending more than a year (total time) over the last three years in Europe (Sweden specifically), I find their legal systems and procedures more satisfying and appropriate in many ways; especially where frivolous litigation is concerned and would be the first one cheering to see the US adopt these models. I also believe strongly that the changes that are a “MUST HAVE” will need to be applied to the general legal system first, for there to be corrections in sub-categories like Patent Law. You may dissent with this view, but you can not ignore the fact that this discussion really covers more ground than simply looking at Patent issues specifically… The decision you face now is where your efforts would be most effective in moving your agenda forward most efficiently…
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Eric the Red on November 25, 2006, 09:26:55 PM
I humbly submit that Patent Law is a force for good, surely if the drug company cannot protect their idea then they won't spend millions in research and the development of the next wonder drug. Perhaps the question is not so much about Patents but about Copyright - how long should it be before others can use that idea without having to obtain a licence to do so?

Now, where did I put my asbestos pants?
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 25, 2006, 10:56:22 PM
I humbly submit that Patent Law is a force for good, surely if the drug company cannot protect their idea then they won't spend millions in research and the development of the next wonder drug.
IMO that is only partially true. Of course companies research on drugs which creates costs, but they prefer those drugs which promise the biggest profit/shareholder value/you name it. So "p1llz for ur pen1s", as the lovely spam messages in my mailbox put it, will be far more attractive than other drugs.

And while these corporations reportedly resort to people from developing countries as test subjects (also beyond voluntary participation of the subjects!), they would not give these drugs away for a reasonable price in the very same countries. Also the attitude of the US government after the anthrax letters showed that patents are valid only as long as they don't violate their interests (namely the drug of a international corporation that had some "antidot"). However, to be fair other states such as some South American and African also invalidated patents to copy drugs of big corporations that refused to provide a reasonably cheap alternative. We are using the resources from all around the world and we still have the same attitude that existed during the age of colonisation. It is us (1st world) living at the expense of them (2nd and 3rd world)! Yes, we are exploiting them.

This is why I referred to ethics and moral before. These companies have a responsibility. And this (social/economical/...) responsibility has been neglected for quite a while already by the global corporations - and I do not only refer to pharma industry here. Hey, it is the so-called first world that still dominates everything if it comes to "Intellectual Property" and we neglect only a few billion other inhabitants of this planet by the attitude to enforce our jurisdictions in environments that are totally different. The WIPO congress shows this very well ... it's time to share. The clash of civilizations will not be between religions but between rich and poor - and I doubt one of them will discriminate between opponents and proponents of patents, intellectual property or other things we argue about now ...

Perhaps the question is not so much about Patents but about Copyright - how long should it be before others can use that idea without having to obtain a licence to do so?
Not sure, but don't you have to get licenses for patented things only? Of course I can only resort to the information I have from public sources and my best knowledge is about the German system. According to it we have something that is similar to the copyright called "Urheberrecht" which is automatically "granted" to any work you do (within certain categories). For example if you are author of a book this will guarantee that plagiarism is basically ruled out or can be punished.

So this means for example that a German author (or other persons to whom the jurisdiction applies) of Open Source software could - and I have seen this happening in a medium sized project - revoke his source and refer to the German "Urheberrecht".

But well, to come back to software patents. Aren't it the big US corporations that are lobbying for software patents and waiting with barrowstruckloads full of patent application outside of the European patent office? Have you noticed that even big European software companies are against software patents? Let alone the thousands of small ones?

Now, where did I put my asbestos pants?
You won't need them.
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on November 27, 2006, 09:56:04 PM
Interesting reading ...

http://patentlaw.typepad.com/patent/4_2D06_2D05Certpetition_formatted.pdf
http://patentlaw.typepad.com/KSR%20MicrosoftCisco_Amicus.pdf
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on December 12, 2006, 06:06:16 PM
More interesting reading related to the nature of patents (in addition to my post from 2006-11-26): wealth and poverty.

Pioneering Study Shows Richest Two Percent Own Half World Wealth (http://www.wider.unu.edu/research/2006-2007/2006-2007-1/wider-wdhw-launch-5-12-2006/wider-wdhw-press-release-5-12-2006.htm). Still not time to share ... not even knowledge or "intellectual property"? :blink:
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Corrine on December 17, 2006, 12:00:12 AM
Just for you, Oliver:  Google Patents (http://www.google.com/patents)
Title: Re: Thread for discussion of forbidding of software patents.........
Post by: Assarbad on December 17, 2006, 03:07:08 PM
Just for you, Oliver:  Google Patents (http://www.google.com/patents)
Hi Corrine, thanks!

I know. They've set that up lately, but using a real (US) patent number it worked already way before (of course you'd have to know the number which made it somewhat senseless if you wanted to search for topics). Someone claimed already 1 or 2 years back Google would have the better patent search than the US patent office ... and that was without this new facility, yet :lol: